Preamble

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

London Midland and Scottish Railway (No. 2) Bill.

As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.

Tees (Newport) Bridge Bill (Certified Bill).

As amended, considered; King's Consent signified; Bill read the Third time (pursuant to the Order of the House of 11th December), and passed.

Liverpool Exchange Company Bill [Lords].

Read a Second time, and committed.

Cardiff Corporation Bill (by Order).

Consideration, as amended, deferred till Wednesday.

Oral Answers to Questions — INDIA.

CENTRAL BOARD OF REVENUE.

Mr. DAY: 1.
asked the Secretary of State for India the names of the persons serving on the Central Board of Revenue appointed by the Government of India under the Indian Central Board of Revenue Act, 1924; and can he state what administrative functions are discharged by this Board?

The SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Mr. Wedgwood Benn): I am circulating this information.

Mr. DAY: Can my right hon. Friend say the number of persons serving on the Central Board of Revenue, and by whom they are appointed?

Mr. BENN: I do not think that that information was asked for in the question.

Following is the information:

The members of the Board are Messrs. A. R. L. Tottenham, C.I.E., I.C.S., and A. H. Lloyd, C.I.E., I.C.S. The Board, whose powers and duties are defined in certain Indian statutes, is mainly concerned with the administration of the law relating to Customs, Income Tax, opium and salt, and—so far as the Central Government is concerned with these subjects—Excise and Stamp Duties.

MILITARY COLLEGE.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: 2.
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he has now considered Cmd. 3451, Report of the Indian Central Committee, 1928–29, and especially paragraph 137 of Chapter 6, and the recommendation of the committee with regard to the establishment of a military college in India; and whether he can report any progress in the preparations for the establishment of such college or colleges in India for the training of suitable Indian gentlemen for Commissions in His Majesty's Forces?

Mr. BENN: I have, of course, read what is said on this matter and others in the report. I have explained to my hon. and gallant Friend the lines on which the Government of India are working, and I can only assure him that further steps will be taken as soon as the occasion presents itself.

Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Can my right hon. Friend assure me that the matter is being got on with without delay? Ten months is a long time.

Mr. BENN: Yes, Sir.

BOMBAY HIGH COURT.

Mr. WARDLAW-MILNE: 3.
asked the Secretary of State for India what are the reasons for the congestion of work in the Bombay High Court, resulting in suits instituted in 1925 still awaiting hearing; and what steps are being taken to remedy this state of affairs?

Mr. BENN: The whole question of congestion in the Bombay High Court and other connected matters is engaging the active consideration of the Government of Bombay, and until I have received their report I shall not be in a position to make a statement.

Mr. WARDLAW-MILNE: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the desirability of setting up a Commission to go into the whole matter, because the delay is very prolonged?

Mr. BENN: The delay is prolonged, and I will see that the suggestion of the hon. Gentleman is brought to the notice of the Government of Bombay.

STATUTORY COMMISSION (REPORT).

Mr. FREEMAN: 4.
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he can now state the date when the Simon Commission Report will be published?

Mr. BENN: I have consulted the Chairman of the Statutory Commission and am now able to give the House the following reply:
The Statutory Commission's report will be issued in two volumes, with an interval between the publication of the first and the second. Almost the whole of the first volume is in the printer's hands. The second volume is not so far advanced. I hope to be able to make a more definite announcement as to dates of publication when the House resumes after Easter, but in the meantime I must point out that, after the whole Report is signed, processes of binding and production and the necessity of simultaneous issue in India and in this country inevitably involve some delay before it can be available for Parliament. I have every reason to know that no time is being wasted in the completion of a very heavy task.

Mr. FREEMAN: Is my right hon. Friend considering the question of issuing a summary, as was suggested some time ago?

Mr. BENN: I think that that is rather a matter for the Chairman of the Commission than for me.

TOBACCO INDUSTRY.

Mr. FREEMAN: 5.
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he has been advised of the request of the Bengal National Chamber of Commerce to bring the tobacco industry in India under State control; and what action he proposes to take in the matter?

Mr. BENN: I have no information on the subject except what has appeared in the Press. I have no doubt that if any practical proposals are put forward they will be duly considered by the Government of India.

CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE CAMPAIGN.

Captain PETER MACDONALD: 6.
asked the Secretary of State for India if he has any further information regarding the campaign of civil disobedience being conducted by Mahatma Gandhi?

Mr. WARDLAW-MILNE: 7.
asked the Secretary of State for India if he will give the House the latest information available regarding the situation in India and the civil disobedience movement?

Mr. BENN: The movement initiated by Mr. Gandhi has developed generally along the lines which were anticipated. Broadly speaking, it may be said that the defiance of the Salt Law has in itself not caused much trouble. Its real significance lies in the attempt to use it as a means of rousing public sentiment to a dangerous pitch, and in one or two places the public demonstrations have, I regret to say, resulted in clashes with the police. As I said last week, it is too early yet to give an appreciation of the effects of this campaign, but I have every confidence that the steps taken by the Government of India will be adequate to deal with the situation as it may develop.

Earl WINTERTON: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many persons have been arrested since the beginning of the campaign of disobedience for breaking the law in connection with salt and other matters?

Mr. BENN: I will gladly do what the Noble Lord desires and will ask for specific information on that point.

Mr. BROCKWAY: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is the case that Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, the Chairman of the India National Congress, has been arrested to day arising from that campaign?

Mr. BENN: I have seen that announcement made in the newspapers, but I have no information officially of the arrest.

Mr. BROCKWAY: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is the case that the principal share markets in Bombay have been closed and that—

Mr. SPEAKER: That matter does not arise out of the question.

MEDICAL DEGREES.

Mr. FREEMAN: 8.
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he is yet in a position to make any further statement on the action of the General Medical Council in withdrawing recognition of various medical degrees of India?

Mr. BENN: I regret that I am unable to add anything to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend on the 20th March last.

Mr. FREEMAN: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the widespread indignation caused throughout India among all parties on this question; and cannot something be done to expedite the matter?

Mr. BENN: The Government of India are fully aware of the position, and I am sure that they are dealing with it as expeditiously as they can.

Mr. FREEMAN: Is it within the power of India to consider the withdrawal of English medical degrees in India?

Mr. BENN: I should like notice of that question.

HAJ PILGRIMS.

Major GRAHAM POLE: 9.
asked the Secretary of State for India whether the Government of India propose to accept the recommendation of the Haj inquiry committee to the effect that a centralised agency should be set up to keep the Government in close touch with the problems relating to Haj pilgrims?

Mr. BENN: I have not yet received any statement of the views of the Government of India on the recommendations of this committee.

KIDNAPPED GIRLS, SINDH.

Major POLE: 10.
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he is yet in a position to make a statement regarding the existence in Sindh of a traffic in girls kidnapped from the neighbouring territories of Katchh, Kathiawar, Gujrat and Marwar; and whether he can give any in-
formation as to the steps that have been taken, or are contemplated, with a view to bringing this traffic to an end?

Mr. BENN: No, Sir. I am still in correspondence with the Government of India on this subject.

SOUTH AFRICA (ASSISTED EMIGRATION SCHEME).

Major POLE: 11.
asked the Secretary of State for India the number of Indians who have returned to India from the Union of South Africa under the provisions of the assisted emigration scheme since the scheme came into force in August, 1927; and what proportion of the persons so returned have availed themselves of the provisions of the scheme enabling return to the Union of South Africa subject to certain conditions?

Mr. BENN: I have no official figure later than that which I gave my hon. and gallant Friend on 18th November. But I have seen the report of a statement made by the South African Minister of Education in the Union Parliament in August last to the effect that between 6,000 and 7,000 Indians had left South Africa under the scheme, and only four had returned.

TEA CULTIVATION.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: 12.
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he can furnish information about the proposed restriction of tea planting and production in India?

Mr. BENN: I have no information except what has appeared in the Press.

LABOUR UNIONS.

Mr. FOOT: 13.
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he will give the most recent information of the number of labour unions that have been registered in India?

Mr. BENN: I am sending to the hon. Member a statement containing all the information in my possession.

WOMEN POLICE.

Mr. DUCKWORTH: 14.
asked the Secretary of State for India whether any of the provinces of the Government of India employ women police; and, if so, can he state what are their duties and give particulars?

Mr. BENN: No women police are employed in India with the exception of one lady inspector in the Punjab, who has the status of a police officer and whose duty is to look after female railway passengers.

PROCESSIONS (PROSECUTIONS).

Mr. THURTLE: 17.
asked the Secretary of State for India if he is now in a position to state the nature of the inscriptions on banners which formed the basis of the recent prosecution and conviction of Mr. Subhas C. Bose and others?

Mr. BENN: So far as I am aware the case is still sub judice. I will send my hon. Friend a copy of the judgment of the magistrate, which contains all the information in my possession.

Oral Answers to Questions — GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.

INDIA OFFICE (SALARIES AND EXPENSES).

Sir NICHOLAS GRATTAN-DOYLE: 16.
asked the Secretary of State for India what proportions of the whole expenditure on salaries and expenses of the India Office is represented by the Grant-in-Aid of £106,000 in the Civil Estimates for the current year?

Mr. BENN: The estimated expenditure on salaries and expenses of the India Office for the year 1930–31 is £257,000. Towards this Imperial Revenues contribute indirectly a sum of £12,000 in addition to the Grant-in-Aid of £106,000. The total contribution, £118,000, represents approximately 46 per cent. of the estimated expenditure.

ENEMY DEBTS DEPARTMENT.

Mr. THURTLE: 64.
asked the Attorney-General if he is now in a position to state what action, if any, he contemplates taking against the Dutchman, named Hauser, who corrupted the two civil servants of the Enemy Debts Department who were recently convicted?

The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Clynes): I have been asked to reply to this question and regret that I can only say that it would not be in the public interest to make any statement on this matter.

Mr. THURTLE: Is my hon. Friend aware this matter has been under con-
sideration for nearly two months; and will he endeavour to get those responsible to come to an early decision upon it?

Mr. CLYNES: As far as my Department is concerned, there has been no delay whatever. I can give the hon. Member, privately, some information to explain further my answer.

Mr. KELLY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this matter was known to the late Government for nearly two years?

Oral Answers to Questions — EGYPT.

TREATY NEGOTIATIONS

Mr. WARDLAW-MILNE: 18.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will now give the House an indication of the position of affairs in connection with the Egyptian Conference and state what points arising out of the offer set out in the White Paper are now and have been under discussion?

Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLE: 26.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can now make any statement as to the progress of the negotiations with the Egyptian delegation now in this country?

The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Dalton): The proposals issued in the White Paper are still under discussion, but my right hon. Friend does not consider that it would be helpful at the present stage of the negotiations to go into points of detail in reply to a Parliamentary Question.

Mr. WARDLAW-MILNE: May I ask the hon. Gentleman whether we are to understand that the proposals do not go further than those laid down in the White Paper under discussion. in view of the statement of the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary that these proposals were the extreme limit to which we can go?

Mr. DALTON: My right hon. Friend hopes that he may perhaps be in a position to make a statement on the Adjournment on Thursday by permission of the House. Meanwhile, I have nothing to add.

BRITISH OFFICIALS

Mr. MARJORIBANKS: 20.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
how many British subjects have been dismissed from Government positions in Egypt since last July; and what pensions have been awarded to them?

Mr. SMITHERS: 23.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many British officials in the service of the Egyptian Government have had their contracts cancelled during the last six months; whether they have received adequate compensation; and is any action being taken to find them other employment?

Mr. DALTON: So far as I am aware no British officials have been dismissed from the Egyptian Government Service. With regard to the number of those whose contracts have not been renewed, I would refer the hon. Member to the written reply returned to the hon. and gallant Member for Bromley (Lieut.-Colonel James) on the 11th of April. Apart from one or two exceptions, the pensionable service of foreign officials under the Egyptian Government came to an end with the enactment in July, 1923, of Law No. 28, which provided for generous compensation to the total amount of, roughly, £7,000,000. No further liabilities under this head arise.

Mr. MARJORIBANKS: When he states that no officials have been dismissed, has the hon. Gentleman forgotten Lord Lloyd?

Mr. DALTON: Lord Lloyd informed us that he did not consider himself—[Interruption.]

Mr. SMITHERS: May I respectfully draw your attention, Mr. Speaker, to the fact that one of the questions was mine and that I desire to ask a supplementary question?

Mr. SPEAKER: I have called the next question.

Mr. MARJORIBANKS: On a point of Order—

Mr. SPEAKER: There cannot be a point of Order.

ITALIAN INTERESTS.

Mr. MARJORIBANKS: 21.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether there have been any discussions since July last between His Majesty's
Government and the Italian Government concerning Italian interests in Egypt?

Mr. DALTON: No, Sir.

STRAITS ADMINISTRATIVE COMMISSION.

Captain P. MACDONALD: 19.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will state the composition of, and the nature of the duties performed by, the Straits Administrative Commission; whether it is a permanent body; and the total cost of the Commission to the British Government?

Mr. DALTON: The Straits Commission consists of representatives of Bulgaria, France, Great Britain, Greece, Italy, Japan, Rumania and Turkey. It is the duty of the Commission, which is a permanent body, to see that those provisions of the Straits Convention of Lausanne which relate to the passage of warships and military aircraft Are duly carried out. The total cost of the Commission to His Majesty's Government is, approximately, £1,670 per annum.

Captain MACDONALD: Can the hon. Gentleman say who are the representatives?

Mr. DALTON: I cannot answer that question without notice. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman will put down a question, we will give him a reply.

Oral Answers to Questions — RUSSIA.

TRADE AGREEMENT.

Sir KINGSLEY WOOD: 22.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can make a statement as to the present position of the negotiations for an Anglo-Soviet Russian trade treaty?

Sir WILLIAM DAVISON: 32.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, under the trade treaty now under negotiation with the Russian Soviet Ambassador, it is contemplated to give special diplomatic privileges to any trade representatives such as were previously given to the directors of Arcos, or whether it is proposed that the Soviet Government should be in the same position as other persons engaging in trade with this country?

Mr. DALTON: Yes, Sir. Negotiations have been proceeding for the purpose of concluding a temporary commercial agreement to serve as a modus vivendi pending the conclusion of a full treaty. Although certain points remain to be settled, agreement has been reached on the main features of this temporary instrument. It will provide generally for the reciprocal grant of most-favoured-nation treatment in respect of trade, and of national treatment, subject to certain exceptions, in respect of shipping. It will also accord to the Soviet Government the right to establish in London a trade delegation consisting of the trade representative of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and his two deputies, forming part of the Soviet Embassy. The head of this delegation, and the two deputies, will consequently receive diplomatic privileges. Immunity will also attach to specified offices, occupied by the delegation and used exclusively for commercial purposes. The diplomatic privileges accorded by the agreement will not, however, be claimed in connection with any proceedings before the Courts in respect of commercial transactions entered into by the delegation in this country.
It is hoped to bring this temporary agreement, which will be subject to denunciation at six months' notice, and only valid pending the conclusion of a full Treaty of Commerce and Navigation, into operation at an early date.

Sir K. WOOD: Will the agreement be immediately published and made available to the House?

Mr. DALTON: It will be published as a White Paper at an early date.

Lieut.-Colonel JAMES: Can the hon. Member say whether, when any of these officials go home, they will be afforded protection against their own Government?

Sir W. DAVISON: Arising out of Question 32, can the hon. Gentleman say how the Government propose to see that these officers are used only for commercial purposes, if they are at the same time to have diplomatic privileges?

Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member has answered the question on the Paper.

Sir W. DAVISON: 30.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can give an assurance to the House
that no new trade treaty will be entered into with the Russian Soviet Government before a definite settlement has been arrived at as to the payment of private debts owing to British nationals?

Mr. DALTON: I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given to the hon. Member for Chislehurst (Mr Smithers) on the 20th of March. As I have already informed the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood), the negotiations for a full commercial treaty have not yet begun. My right hon. Friend contemplates that these negotiations and those for a settlement of claims and debts will proceed concurrently.

Sir W. DAVISON: The hon. Member has not answered the point raised in my question as to whether any definite settlement will be arrived at until an agreement has been reached as to the payment of debts to British nationals who have had their property taken without compensation?

Mr. DALTON: That is covered by the reply to a question by the hon. Member for Chislehurst (Mr. Smithers) on the 20th March.

Mr. SMITHERS: Are we to take it, in view of the statement made in reply to an earlier question, that it is the policy of His Majesty's Government to enter into a trade agreement before the debts are settled?

Mr. DALTON: The previous answer which I gave to the right hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) gave particulars of the trade agreement. That, as I have already informed the House, has practically been concluded. As I have stated in reply to the hon. Member for South Kensington (Sir W. Davison), it is contemplated by my right hon. Friend that the negotiations for the full trade treaty, which is to follow the trade agreement, and for the settlement of debts and claims, will proceed concurrently.

ANGLICAN CHURCH, MOSCOW.

Captain MARGESSON: 28.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is now in a position to say whether the Anglican church in Moscow is now available if wanted for religious worship?

Mr. DALTON: Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend has ascertained that if at any time the Anglican church were required for religious worship there is no reason why arrangements should not be made for it to be so used.

Mr. MOND: Can the hon. Gentleman tell us what taxation will be imposed upon that church and what rates they will be called upon to pay?

RUSSIAN SUBJECTS (RECALL).

Commander OLIVER LOCKER-LAMPSON: 29.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Soviet representative in England has approached His Majesty's Government for co-operation in compelling certain of its agents to return to Russia?

Sir W. DAVISON: 31.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received any representations from the Soviet Ambassador with regard to the employés of the Soviet Government in London who have been ordered to return to Moscow under penalty of death; and what action is being taken by the Foreign Office in the matter?

Mr. DALTON: No representations have been received, and consequently no action has been taken.

Commander LOCKER - LAMPSON: Will the Government prevent the policy of persecution in Russia from extending to their subjects in this country?

Mr. DALTON: I think that is a rhetorical question.

Sir W. DAVISON: Can the hon. Gentleman give an assurance as to the rights of asylum being granted to these persons here, seeing that diplomatic representatives are being compelled to return to their country, on pain of death, for no alleged crime?

Mr. DALTON: That question is hypothetical, and, if it were not, it should be addressed to the Home Office.

Commander LOCKER - LAMPSON: Will the hon. Member prevent the persecution of these people in this country?

Colonel HOWARD-BURY: 88.
asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that there are certain Soviet subjects in this country who, by their refusal to re-
turn to Russia, have incurred the death penalty in their own country; and whether these Soviet subjects, on the expiration of their permit to reside in this country, are to be given asylum in this country or are to be deported to Russia?

Mr. CLYNES: I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to my reply to a question on this subject by the hon. Member for East Lewisham (Sir A. Pownall) on the 10th instant. I can at present add nothing to that reply.

Colonel HOWARD-BURY: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether, when these permits expire, these men have to leave this country?

Mr. CLYNES: That question asks me to anticipate any decision which later I may be justified in reaching.

Lieut. - Colonel Sir FREDERICK HALL: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that these Russians contemplate this as a lovely land to live in?

RUSSIAN CITIZENS (RESIDENCE IN GREAT BRITAIN).

Mr. MARJORIBANKS: 90.
asked the Home Secretary what limits or conditions are placed upon the continued residence of citizens of the Soviet Union in this country, apart from the Soviet Ambassador and his suite?

Mr. CLYNES: Soviet citizens, like all other aliens, are subject to the provisions of the Aliens Order, 1920. All who come to this country for business, for employment by Soviet organisations, or for other purposes, and who are given leave to land, have definite time conditions imposed on this leave. They are required to leave the country within the period specified unless they apply for and, obtain an extension of time from my Department.

FOREIGN PORTS (MEDICAL EXAMINATION).

Mr. ERNEST BROWN: 24.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information of cases in which British women and girls are subjected to medical examination on arrival at foreign ports; and can he give particulars?

Mr. DALTON: No, Sir. My right hon. Friend has received no particulars of individual cases of the examination of British women abroad.

Oral Answers to Questions — CHINA.

SITUATION.

Mr. HURD: 25.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the present position in China and the date of the last communication he has received from the British representative in China?

Mr. DALTON: In North China the forces of the coalition against the Chinese Government have advanced into Shantung and Honan, encountering little, if any, resistance. In South China Government troops have recaptured the town of Yuanchow, which had been captured by bandits. On the other hand, four North River districts in the province of Kwangtung have been captured by insurgents. The Canton Government is finding difficulty in dealing with this new threat, since nearly all their troops are engaged against rebels on the Kuangsi front. My right hon. Friend is in daily receipt of reports on the situation from His Majesty's representative in China.

PIRACY GUARDS.

Sir B. PETO: 75.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the entire cost of regular naval and military guards on British ships to afford protection against piracy is to be charged to the shipping companies or only the additional cost incidental to their special service?

The FIRST LORD of the ADMIRALTY (Mr. A. V. Alexander): As stated in my reply to a question by the hon. Member on 26th March the cost of any regular guards supplied after the 31st March will be charged against the shipping companies in full.

Sir B. PETO: Why are British ship-owners treated worse than the Egyptian Government in this matter?

Mr. ALEXANDER: I have no reason to believe that they are treated worse.

Sir B. PETO: Does not the right hon. Gentleman know that the Egyptian Government are only charged the extra cost of British troops stationed in Egypt and not the whole cost?

Mr. ALEXANDER: That is an entirely different matter.

Sir B. PETO: Is it not the traditional British policy to afford our ships protection against piracy?

PASSPORTS (FEES).

Captain CROOKSHANK: 27.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what fees were collected duriag the last 12 months through issuing passports in London; and how many such passports were issued?

Mr. DALTON: 182,423 passports were issued in London during the year ended the 31st of December, 1929. The total amount of fees collected curing this period by the London Passport Office in respect of all services rendered was £91,240.

NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.

Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: 33.
asked the Minister of Pensions how many pension cases outside the seven years' limit have been brought to his notice since the official statement on Government policy with regard to this limit; how many have been allowed how may are old cases; how many of these latter have been refused in spite of furnishing fresh medical evidence; and in how many cases the private doctors concerned disagreed with the findings of the Ministry's medical board?

Mr. PARKINSON (Lord of the Treasury): In the absence of my right hon. Friend, the Minister of Pensions, on official duties, I have been asked to reply. During this period, I am informed, some 9,500 fresh applications have been received and about 2,500 applications have been revived. Altogether 227 claims have been recognised by the Ministry during the same period, either by way of pension or treatment, though naturally it has not yet been possible to investigate more than a proportion of the recent applications. I understand that the records of the Ministry do not enable the information asked for in the last two parts of the question to be given, but that in the majority of cases no fresh material medical evidence has
ordinarily been produced in support of revived claims.

Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: Can the hon. Member say in what respect the policy of the present Government varies from that of their predecessors?

Oral Answers to Questions — TRADE AND COMMERCE.

DOMINIONS AND COLONIES (EXHIBITIONS).

Mr. DAY: 34.
asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether his Department have under consideration a series of exhibitions in the leading cities of the Dominions and Colonies for the purpose of promoting the purchase of British goods in the same manner as the British Industries Fair which is organised in England; can he say whether the trade commissioners appointed by his Department have received any instructions to further this object; and will he give particulars?

Mr. GILLETT (Secretary, Overseas Trade Department): The possibility of holding the fair, or sections of it, at centres outside this country, and the possibility of organising a travelling fair either in ships or trains, are questions which have been referred to the Chelmsford Committee. Pending the receipt of the Committee's report, no instructions have been sent to trade commissioners.

INTERNATIONAL EXHIBITIONS BUREAU.

Sir N. GRATTAN-DOYLE: 35.
asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department what are the duties of the Bureau for Limitation of International Exhibitions; what is its composition; where is it situated; and what proportion of the total cost is represented by the contribution of £500 contained in the Civil Estimates for the current year?

Mr. GILLETT: The functions of the International Exhibitions Bureau will be to see that the provisions of the Convention relating to International Exhibitions, signed at Paris in November, 1928, are duly carried out. The Bureau will not be set up until after the Convention itself comes into force, which it will not do until it has been ratified by at least seven of the signatory countries. (Hitherto only one country has formally
ratified the Convention.) The Bureau will be controlled by an administrative council composed of members appointed by the contracting countries who ratify the Convention. The seat of the Bureau is, by the terms of the Convention, to be fixed at the first meeting of the administrative council, which is to be convened at Paris by the French Government in the year following the coming into force of the Convention. The budget of the Bureau has been provisionally fixed at £4,000 sterling.

Sir N. GRATTAN-DOYLE: In view of the hon. Member's reply, may I ask what useful purpose is being served by the continuance of this bureau?

Mr. GILLETT: One of the principal advantages is to try and secure, if it is possible, that there shall not be so many of these exhibitions.

Sir N. GRATTAN-DOYLE: Does the hon. Member think that it is worth the money we are paying for it?

Mr. GILLETT: We are not paying the whole of this £4,000.

BEAUHARNOIS SCHEME, QUEBEC (CONTRACT).

Mr. HANNON: 36.
asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether his attention has been called to the hydro-electric power development scheme on the St. Francois River, in Quebec, designed to meet the growing requirements of the eastern townships of that province; and if he will take steps, when the plans are approved by the Quebec public service commission, to endeavour to secure that the contract for the necessary machinery may be placed in this country?

Mr. GILLETT: Various reports relating to this project, which is known as the Beauharnois scheme, have been sent to my Department which, in conjunction with His Majesty's senior trade commissioner in Canada, has already made and will continue to make every effort to secure that as large a proportion as possible of the orders for the necessary plant and material shall be placed in this country.

Mr. HANNON: May I ask whether the hon. Gentleman's Department is keeping in touch with the senior trade commissioner on other matters of a similar character?

Mr. GILLETT: I have no doubt that is the case, but I cannot actually say.

CITRUS FRUIT AND SILK INDUSTRIES, JAMAICA.

Mr. HANNON: 37.
asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department the nature and extent of the assistance which the Imperial Government contemplate, in co-operation with the Government of Jamaica, for the development of the citrus fruit industry in that Colony and also for the promotion of the silk and other industries of Jamaica?

The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Dr. Drummond Shiels): I have been asked to reply to this question. As the answer is long, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Mr. HANNON: Yes, but I must ask the hon. Member to indicate the policy of his Department towards the development of these islands. Are they sympathetic towards this project?

Dr. SHIELS: Yes. The hon. Member, when he reads the reply, will find that that is the case.

Following is the answer:

In June, 1926, a grant of £1,200 per annum for two years was made from the Empire Marketing Fund to the Jamaica Producers' Association in aid of their foundation expenses in organising the marketing of bananas on a co-operative basis. In October, 1929, a further grant of £1,200 for one year was made from the same source to that Association to enable them to establish certain commodity organisations, including a citrons fruit organisation, on a self-supporting basis. The Government of Jamaica has co-operated in this development by legislation affording protection to the co-operative movement and facilitating the establishment of a marketing organisation in England. A citrons expert has also visited the Colony at the charge of the Empire Marketing Fund.

As regards the silk industry a grant from the Empire Marketing Fund of £700 a year for two years and £500 for a third year was approved in January, 1930, subject to like contributions from the Government of Jamaica. I should be happy to furnish the hon. Member with details of the research and development
programme in contemplation if he desires that course. Further assistance to Jamaica has been afforded by a visit, at the charge of the Empire Marketing Fund, of an expert entomologist who is investigating methods of biological control of insect pests in the West Indies generally.

IMPORT DUTIES, CZECHOSLOVAKIA (MOTOR CYCLES).

Mr. HANNON: 38.
asked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether he is aware that the import duty on motor cycles imported from this country into Czechoslovakia has been increased as from 1st April last by 17½ per cent., and that, before this increased duty was imposed, the import duty on these articles was no less than 41 per cent.; whether he has any official information showing that the French manufacturers of motor cycles are receiving special perferential treatment in Czechoslovakia as against Great Britain; and, if so, whether he will make representations to the Czechoslovakian Government with a view to the modification of the new duties as against Great Britain?

Mr. GILLETT: I am not aware of any change in the Customs Duty on motor cycles imported into Czechoslovakia. By a recent decree there has been an alteration, as from 1st April, in the assessment of the turnover tax levied on the importation of certain articles. Motor cycles are now taxed at 250 crowns per 100 kilos gross weight instead of the former rate of 2 per cent. ad valorem. I am not aware that French motor cycles receive preferential treatment. Steps have already been taken by His Majesty's Commercial Secretary to secure, if possible, that the new taxation shall not apply to goods in transit or in customs warehouses. I am endeavouring to obtain some further information in regard to the tax with a view to approaching the Czechoslovakian Government on the subject.

Mr. HANNON: Will the hon. Member, in approaching the Government of Czechoslovakia on this important point, call their attention to the fact that the balance of trade between their country and ours is £7,000,000 in their favour, and will he ask them to make some concession on this matter.

Mr. ARTHUR MICHAEL SAMUEL: Is not this very important to our export trade and will the hon. Member convey this information to the President of the Board of Trade as an indication of the result of his interference at the Geneva Conference?

Mr. GILLETT: We are still awaiting information, and, when we have it, we shall consider the possibility mentioned by the hon. Member for Moseley (Mr. Hannon).

Sir W. DAVISON: May I ask whether these duties have been put on as a result of the Tariff Truce?

MONOPOLIES AND RINGS.

Mr. RAMSAY: 79.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been drawn to the recent tendency towards the creation of monopolies and rings in industry and trade; and whether he will consider the appointment of a Departmental Committee to inquire into the effect of such monopolies and rings upon the price of important commodities which are averse to the interests of the country?

Mr. GILLETT: In view of the intention of the Government to introduce at an early date legislation for the establishment of a Consumers' Council, and of the recent appointment of a Committee to inquire into certain trade practices, I do not think the appointment of a further committee is necessary at present.

Mr. WISE: Is it not the case that there are already masses of material on this point in the possession of the Department and that what is wanting is authority to use it?

Oral Answers to Questions — AGRICULTURE.

LAND DRAINAGE.

Mr. DAY: 39.
asked the Minister of Agriculture the total acreage in England which is urgently in need of arterial drainage; when the last survey was made; and will he give particulars?

The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Noel Buxton): It was estimated by the Ministry in 1927 that 1,166,000 acres of land in England were urgently in need of arterial drainage. This estimate was
based on information supplied by drainage authorities and county councils and by officers of the Ministry, and on the experience of the Ministry, as the result of drainage operations for the relief of unemployment carried out during the years 1921–1926. More recent information which is in the possession of the Ministry as a result of the surveying work which is proceeding in connection with the Land Drainage Bill indicates that the figure given in 1927 must now be regarded as an under-estimate.

CEREALS AND POTATOES (ACREAGE).

Mr. REMER: 41.
asked the Minister of Agriculture how many acres were under cultivation for cereals and potatoes, respectively, for the years 1928 and 1929 in England and Wales?

Mr. N. BUXTON: The areas under cereals and potatoes in England and Wales in 1928 were 4,493,071 acres and 498,019 acres respectively, and in 1929 the corresponding figures were 4,479,714 acres and 518,808 acres.

WAGES ACT (PROSECUTIONS).

Mr. T. WILLIAMS: 43.
asked the Minister of Agriculture the number of prosecutions which have taken place during the past six months under the Agricultural Wages (Regulation) Act; the total amount of arrears of wages which have been recovered; and the largest individual amount?

Mr. N. BUXTON: The number of prosecutions undertaken during the six months ended 31st March, 1930, under the Agricultural Wages (Regulation) Act, for failure to pay wages at not less than the minimum rates was 100 in respect of 170 workers. The total arrears of wages awarded by the courts in these cases was £2,013, the largest amount ordered to be paid by an individual employer being £119 17s. 6d. for six workers. The largest amount received by an individual worker was £64 15s. 3d.

Mr. WILLIAMS: Can the Minister of Agriculture say how many farm workers have been dismissed because arrears were to be paid?

Mr. BUXTON: Perhaps the hon. Member will put down that question on the Order Paper?

PRICES (STABILISATION).

Mr. HOPKIN: 44.
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will obtain and issue the information and particulars of the schemes recently adopted in New Zealand, Switzerland and Norway, under which the home farmers secure a first claim on the home market at a stabilised price, and the balance of the home requirements are obtained from abroad?

Mr. N. BUXTON: I am taking steps to supplement the information already in my possession regarding the schemes referred to by my hon. Friend, and when my information is complete in detail I will consider whether any useful purpose would be served by publication.

CONFERENCE.

Viscount WOLMER: 53.
asked the Minister of Agriculture how many meetings of the Agricultural Conference have taken place; when it met last; and when he anticipates it will have concluded its abroad?

Mr. N. BUXTON: The Agricultural Conference has held 10 meetings, the last taking place on Friday, 21st March. The Conference is holding itself in readiness for further meetings, but I am not at present in a position to give the date of the next meeting.

Viscount WOLMER: Why has the Conference not met in the last few weeks?

Mr. BUXTON: The Conference is awaiting the result of the technical examination of proposals before fixing an exact date.

Viscount WOLMER: Did the right hon. Gentleman adjourn the Conference?

Mr. BUXTON: No, Sir.

PRICE OF CEREALS (FARMERS REPRESENTATIONS).

Mr. HURD: 54.
asked the Minister of Agriculture the purport of the representations he has received from a mass meeting of 1,200 landlords, farmers, and farm workers of Wiltshire and surrounding counties, held at Salisbury, in regard to the plight of the agricultural industry and the present price for cereals; and what steps the Government propose in order to relieve the situation?

Mr. N. BUXTON: The representations in question expressed concern at the
position of agriculture and asked that measures should be taken to assure farmers a remunerative price for cereals. In reply to the last part of the question, I would refer the hon. Members to previous replies to similar questions, to which I have nothing to add at present.

Mr. HURD: In view of the large and representative character of this gathering, does the right hon. Gentleman not think that he should do something to accelerate matters?

Mr. HAYCOCK: In view of the cheapness of wheat, what is the explanation of the present price of bread?

BREAD (BRITISH-GROWN WHEAT)

Mr. LOUIS SMITH: 55.
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he proposes to take any steps, and, if so, of what nature, to ensure the use of a greater percentage of flour made from British-grown wheat in bread sold to the British public?

Mr. N. BUXTON: I would refer the hon. Member to the last part of the answer which I gave to the hon. Member for South Edinburgh (Sir S. Chapman) on the 7th April, of which I am sending him a copy.

Brigadier-General Sir HENRY CROFT: Will the right hon. Gentleman not consult the Leader of the Liberal party on the proposal for the prohibition of bounty-fed cereals?

BANKRUPTCIES.

Mr. L. SMITH: 56.
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, having regard to the increasing cases of bankruptcy among farmers, he is able to fix a date when he proposes to introduce any Measure remedial of their present condition?

Mr. N. BUXTON: The hon. Member appears to be incorrect in his premise. The number of bankruptcies and receiving orders among farmers in 1929 was the lowest recorded for the last eight years, with the exception of 1926. The figures for the first three months of this year are the lowest since 1926.

Mr. SMITH: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that an hon. Member sitting behind him has said that unless effective measures are taken very soon, nothing but calamity awaits the agricultural industry?

Mr. BUXTON: I have given the exact figures regarding bankruptcy.

Mr. MARJORIBANKS: Does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that the small number of bankruptcies is due to the fact that farmers cannot afford to make anyone bankrupt?

Mr. BUXTON: The hon. Member who put the question asked for the facts in regard to bankruptcies, and I have given them.

TEIFI FISHERY LICENCES.

Mr. HOPKIN: 42.
asked the Minister of Agriculture if he has received an application from the Teifi Fishery Board for permission to increase the cost of licences to the fishermen; and what his decision is in this matter?

Mr. N. BUXTON: Yes, Sir, and I have given instructions for a public local inquiry to be held into the application.

AGRICULTURE AND TEXTILE INDUSTRIES.

Mr. ALLEN: 45.
asked the Prime Minister whether he proposes to introduce legislation which will so adjust financial and fiscal conditions in this country as to give workers, particularly in the agricultural and textile industries, the opportunity of having their products sold at an economic level?

The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Ramsay MacDonald): No legislation has yet been discovered by the wit of man to secure this at any given time and under any conditions.

Mr. ALLEN: May I ask whether it is not the fact that workers cannot have their products sold at an economic level until the currency is brought into real relation with individual productive capacity?

LONDON NAVAL CONFERENCE.

Commander SOUTHBY: 46.
asked the Prime Minister whether he will undertake to obtain the assent of this House before concluding any Three-Power agreement as a result, of the Naval Conference?

The PRIME MINISTER: I have nothing to add to the statement which I made on Thursday last, to which I would refer the hon. and gallant Member.

Commander SOUTHBY: Can the right hon. Gentleman say why he has departed from the policy set forth in his broadcast message to the United States to conclude an agreement, not between three or four Powers, but between the whole five Powers?

The PRIME MINISTER: My statement was that I would do everything in my power to get a Five-Power agreement, and I have done that.

Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLE: 50.
asked the Prime Minister whether the White Paper promised in connection with the Naval Conference will contain the points of view of France and Italy with respect to the reduction of naval strength?

The PRIME MINISTER: The White Paper will set out only the agreements which concern us.

Rear-Admiral BEAMISH: Will the Prime Minister inform the House when we are likely to receive the White Paper?

The PRIME MINISTER: I hope to have the first draft to review some time to-day. It will be a day or two before it will be published.

Mr. HORE-BELISHA: 52.
asked the Prime Minister whether he can now make a full statement with regard to the suspended 1930 naval shipbuilding programme, which was held up pending the result of the Five-Power Conference, and give particulars of the vessels with which it is intended to proceed?

Mr. ALEXANDER: I have been asked to reply. I have nothing to add to the statement on this subject on page two of my Statement Explanatory of the Navy Estimates (Command Paper 3506).

Mr. HORE-BELISHA: Is any instruction to be laid down by the right hon. Gentleman?

Mr. ALEXANDER: I think the hon. Member is rather too eager. We have not yet finished the Naval Conference.

LEAGUE OF NATIONS COVENANT (ARTICLE 16).

Captain EDEN: 47.
asked the Prime Minister whether negotiations for the interpretation of Article 16 of the Covenant are still proceeding; and whether he can make any statement on the subject?

The PRIME MINISTER: The answer is in the negative.

Captain EDEN: May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman has any intention of reopening this question?

GREY SEALS PROTECTION BILL.

Captain CROOKSHANK: 48.
asked the Prime Minister if it is proposed to take the Second Reading of the Grey Seals Protection Bill before the Easter Recess?

The PRIME MINISTER: No, Sir.

COAST PROTECTION BILL.

Captain CROOKSHANK: 49.
asked the Prime Minister if he has yet decided whether he intends to proceed further with the Coast Protection Bill?

The PRIME MINISTER: I can add nothing to what I have already said in reply to questions on this subject. The position is still unchanged.

Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE: Is it to be assumed that the Government have now dropped this Bill?

The PRIME MINISTER: The statement was that, if there was to be a cessation of the opposition to the Measure, communication would be made through the usual channels. No such communication has been made.

CHANNEL TUNNEL.

Mr. MILLS: 51.
asked the Prime Minister whether any decision has yet been reached to proceed with the construction of a tunnel between England and France; whether this will be a dual rail and road tunnel; and whether a direct East-Coast road and rail route has been considered so as to obviate or relieve the congestion of London road and rail traffic?

The PRIME MINISTER: As regards the first part of the question, the matter is still before the authorities concerned,
and, though there will be no unnecessary delay, time must be given for a very thorough final consideration of a project of such importance; the other parts do not therefore at the moment arise.

HORSES (EXPORT).

Mr. MILLS: 57.
asked the Minister of Agriculture if his attention has been called to the continued export of broken down horses for slaughter; if he is aware that a weekly contract is still continuing at Vaugirard; and whether he can promise early legislation to deal with this problem?

Mr. N. BUXTON: The export of broken down horses is already prohibited and the question of further legislation to deal with this problem does not therefore arise. I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member for Ilford (Sir G. Hamilton) on the 20th March, of which I am sending him a copy. I have no knowledge of any weekly contract for the supply of horses to Vaugirard.

Mr. MILLS: Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to investigate the allegation that this export is continuing?

Mr. BUXTON: Certainly. We are constantly following the facts, and our inspector is frequently travelling for the purpose.

Mr MOND: Are we to understand from the right hon. Gentleman's reply that he is satisfied with the condition of this trade?

Sir BASIL PETO: Does the right hon. Gentleman still maintain that the answer which he recently gave in the House, that no British horses are slaughtered in Vaugirard, is in accordance with the facts?

Mr. BUXTON: The only new fact that I have to add, since I last answered a question, is that seven horses have been sent to Vaugirard, but they were all killed by shooting.

Oral Answers to Questions — UNEMPLOYMENT.

EMPLOYMENT EXCHANGE, MACCLESFIELD.

Mr. REMER: 58.
asked the First Commissioner of Works if he now in a posi-
tion to make a statement as to a siite for the Macclesfield Employment Exchange?

The FIRST COMMISSIONER of WORKS (Mr. Lansbury): Plans are still under discussion, and until they have been settled it cannot be determined whether the proposed site is suitable.

Mr. REMER: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that nearly every fortnight for nearly nine months I have put a question to himself or to the Minister of Labour on this subject, and will he take steps to see that someone gives it attention quickly?

Mr. LANSBURY: Certainly.

Mr. REMER: Has the absence of the Chief Secretary of the right hon. Gentleman's Department at Washington anything to do with the matter?

Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Is it not a fact that the hon. Member's questions have already been answered three times.

EXCHANGE FACILITIES, WITHNELL.

Mr. DOUGLAS HACKING: 73.
asked the Minister of Labour whether she has yet reached a decision with regard to the opening of a branch Employment Exchange at Withnell, near Chorley, in view of the state of unemployment in that township?

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of LABOUR (Mr. Lawson): Yes, Sir. The right hon. Member will have received a communication informing him that in view of the exceptional pressure an office will be opened temporarily in this area.

WOMEN (TRAINING SCHEMES.)

Dr. PHILLIPS: 74.
asked the Minister of Labour what training schemes for unemployed women are now being carried out by the Central Committee on Women's Training and Employment; whether any new schemes have been sanctioned; and, if so, what is their nature and what financial provision is being made for the expansion of this work in the year 1930–31?

Mr. LAWSON: As the reply is somewhat long, I propose, with my hon. Friend's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the reply:

The Central Committee on Women's training and employment, in co-operation with my Department, organise non-residential Centres in various parts of the country, and a residential Centre at Leamington, where women and girls under 35 years of age are trained for employment in domestic service. In addition, a class in hotel work is held at Glasgow. Provision for the expansion of the activities of the Committee has been made for the year which begins on 1st May, by the introduction of a scheme of training for unemployed women over 35 years of age who are handicapped by having suffered long periods of unemployment, and a scheme of vocational training for selected applicants who cannot obtain employment without such training and for whom the domestic classes are not suitable. Schemes involving further expansion and modification of existing provisions are at present receiving the consideration of the Committee. A sum of £100,000 has been provided to meet the expenditure of the Committee for the ensuing financial year, as compared with £74,500 during the year about to end.

Oral Answers to Questions — HOUSE OF COMMONS.

PHOTOGRAPHS.

Mr. EDE: 59.
asked the First Commissioner of Works if it is proposed to re-exhibit the photographs taken by the late Sir Benjamin Stone and until recently hanging in the corridor on the ground floor of the Palace of Westminster?

Mr. LANSBURY: It is intended to re-hang the major portion of these photographs in a neighbouring corridor, when the redecorations have been carried out, probably during the Autumn Recess.

LIBRARY (LIGHTING).

Mr. HACKING: 60.
asked the First Commissioner of Works whether he will issue orders for the lighting in the Library to be brought up to date by the installation of the diffused system of lighting as already fixed in certain of the Lobbies of the Houses of Parliament?

Mr. LANSBURY: Lighting similar in type to that recently fitted in the Members' and Ministers' Dining Rooms is to be installed shortly in the Libraries.

Mr. HACKING: Is there very much difference in the cost of the new system compared with the old?

Mr. LANSBURY: It is approximately the same.

EARL HAIG MEMORIAL STATUE.

Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLE: 61.
asked the First Commissioner of Works what has been the expenditure to date on the Haig Memorial statue; whether the revised model has yet been submitted; and by what date he anticipates the statue will be finally erected?

Mr. LANSBURY: There has been no further expenditure since my reply to the hon. Member for Ayr Burghs on the 21st November last, when the expenditure was £460, but an instalment of £100 is about to be paid to the sculptor in respect of the sum of £500 which it was agreed should be paid for the new and larger model. It is not passible to give any date for the erection of the statue, but the work on the new model is expected to take at least six months from the present date.

Mr. J. JONES: Will the right hon. Gentleman provide fish and chips in the parks for those who are poorer Members of the House?

HADRIAN'S WALL.

Sir K. WOOD: 62.
asked the First Commissioner of Works whether his attention has been called to the intention of a private company to carry out extensive quarrying operations at Hadrian's Wall; and whether it is his intention to take any action in the matter?

Captain E. N. BENNETT: 63.
asked the First Commissioner of Works whether, in view of the fact that the proposed quarries in the vicinity of Housesteads (Borcovicus) would actually lie within the boundaries of the Roman fortifications, between the wall and the lines of the vallum, steps can be taken to preserve intact this section of our greatest monument of Roman Britain?

Mr. LANSBURY: I can only say at the moment that my Department is giving anxious consideration to this matter.

Mr. A. M. SAMUEL: How did it arise that the First Commissioned or his Department did not at the outset forbid this outrage against a national treasure?

Mr. LANSBURY: Simply because the First Commissioner is not endowed with the power of a Mussolini.

Mr. SAMUEL: Will the right hon. Gentleman, therefore, administer a rebuke to the local authorities in Northumberland and impress upon them the value of these historic monuments?

Sir N. GRATTAN-DOYLE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the outburst of spontaneous indignation which has occurred in every part of the country, particularly in Northumberland, against this outrage?

Mr. LANSBURY: I am well aware of the indignation that has been aroused, and I think the House will be well advised to allow the matter to be investigated and the whole of the facts to be taken into consideration, and meantime to suspend judgment.

Captain BENNETT: Cannot the whole system of these fortifications, walls, intervening spaces, milestones and vallums, be scheduled at once as ancient monuments?

Mr. LANSBURY: My hon. and gallant Friend has asked me why something that has already been done is not done.

Captain BENNETT: Has the vallum been scheduled as an ancient monument, and not only the wall?

Mr. LANSBURY: That is one of the matters which is being considered.

Oral Answers to Questions — POST OFFICE.

OVERSEA TELEPHONE SERVICE.

Colonel HOWARD-BURY: 65.
asked the Postmaster-General whether the new Transatlantic telephone cable between this country and the United States is to be manufactured in this country or in Germany?

The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. Lees-Smith): It is proposed to lay a telephone cable between Great Britain and the United States of America, to which His Majesty's Government will contri-
buts a half-share conditionally upon the cable, when laid, proving satisfactory. The project is still in the experimental stage and no order can be placed for some months to come, but the present intention is to invite competitive tenders.

Colonel HOWARD-BURY: Seeing that we not only have the best cable ship but the best machinery for making cables, can the hon. Gentleman not insist that the cable shall be British made as a condition of allowing it to land here?

Mr. LEES-SMITH: I would point out that the whole of the risk in this matter is not being undertaken by us, and that half the capital is not being found by us—[Interrupt ion].

Colonel HOWARD-BURY: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in America they have no cable-making machinery; and can he not insist on a condition, as between this country and America, that if the cable is to land in this country it shall be British made?

Mr. LEES-SMITH: As I have already said half of the capital is not being provided by us. [HON. MEMBERS: "But half is!"] We would, of course, do our best to get the order for this country, but I must point out also that, if our condition were found not to be acceptable, and if the cable were laid to France or Spain, which could be done more economically, it would lose us our vital position as the telephonic centre of the world.

Rear-Admiral BEAMISH: Why would it be more economical to lay it to France or Spain?

TELEPHONE FACILITIES, LINCOLNSHIRE.

Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE: 66.
asked the Postmaster-General what public telephone facilities are provided in the neighbourhood of Yarborough and Covenham, Lincolnshire; and if he intends making any alterations?

Mr. LEES-SMITH: A public call office exists at Covenham. I should be prepared to instal call offices at Yarborough, Alvingham and North Cockerington if a suitable guarantee were forthcoming.

WIRELESS RECEIVING LICENCES.

Captain AUSTIN HUDSON: 67.
asked the Postmaster-General the number of wireless receiving licences issued at the
last convenient date; and whether there are any statistics available showing the number of these sets which are of the portable pattern?

Mr. LEES-SMITH: The number of wireless receiving licences in force on the 31st March, 1930, was approximately 3,093,000. There are no statistics available showing how many licensees use portable receiving sets.

Captain HUDSON: Has there been any change of practice by which fixed and portable sets can be held by one person on the same licence?

Mr. LEES-SMITH: In one household a person may have any number of sets on one licence, including more than one portable. The change of practice is that, if he wishes to leave and to take a portable set with him, he is allowed to take one portable set away with him, on the same licence.

PART-TIME NIGHT TELEPHONISTS (CIVIL, SERVANTS).

Mr. CHATER: 68.
asked the Postmaster-General whether any civil servants in full-time employment are also engaged for part-time employment as night telephonists?

Mr. LEES-SMITH: The answer is in the affirmative.

Mr. CHATER: In view of the present serious state of unemployment will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to prevent the discharge of temporary employés, entailing more overtime work for the permanent employés?

Mr. LEES-SMITH: There is no discharge of temporary employés and the difficulty of the Department is to keep temporary employés from taking other positions.

Mr. W. J. BROWN: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if it is not the case that what drives established civil servants to apply for this kind of work, is the chronic under-payment which exists among the civil servants themselves?

Mr. LEES-SMITH: That matter does not arise out of the question.

PALESTINE (ARMS IMPORTATION).

Colonel HOWARD-BURY: 69.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies
whether he is aware that consignments of rifles and ammunition have been consigned to Jewish firms in Palestine; and how many of these have been seized by the Customs officials.

Dr. SHIELS: A consignment was recently seized at Haifa containing 149 rifles, one revolver and a large supply of ammunition. I have received no particulars of any other seizures of a similar kind.

Colonel HOWARD-BURY: Is the right hon. Gentleman taking steps to see that no further consignments of the kind reach that country, and to put a stop to this practice?

Dr. SHIELS: Steps are always being taken to deal with smuggling of this kind.

Earl WINTERTON: Are proceedings being taken against the firm or the individual who imported these rifles; and can the hon. Gentleman give us the name of the firm or the individual?

Dr. SHIELS: I should say that proceedings have been taken.

Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Will steps also be taken to prevent arms going from Transjordan to the Arabs?

IRAQ (MOSUL OILFIELDS).

Captain PEAKE: 70.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Government of Iraq are now being paid any royalties by the Turkish Petroleum Company for the rights to develop the Mosul oilfields; whether commercial development of these oilfields has been commenced; and can he give particulars?

Dr. SHIELS: I understand that no royalties have yet been paid to the Iraq Government by the Iraq Petroleum Company (as the Turkish Petroleum Company is now called) in respect of the Mosul oilfields, since the stage of commercial development has not yet been reached in respect of these fields.

IMAM OF THE YEMEN.

Rear-Admiral BEAMISH: 71.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has received recently a com-
munication from the Imam of the Yemen; and what is the present state of affairs between His Majesty's Government and that ruler?

Dr. SHIELS: Yes, Sir. I have received from the Resident at Aden a translation of a letter addressed to him the Imam of the Yemen. The correspondence is proceeding, but I do not thank that a stage has been reached at which I could usefully make a statement on the subject.

Oral Answers to Questions — ROYAL NAVY.

HIRED MEN (RETIRING GRATUITY).

Mr. HORE-BELISHA: 76.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, seeing that a gratuity is awarded to hired men who are discharged on reduction after seven years' service, he will consider granting a gratuity to hired men who have had seven years' service and are retired on age limit?

Mr. ALEXANDER: No, Sir. These gratuities are regulated by the Superannuation Act of 1887, which the Admiralty have no power to alter.

TORPEDO SCHOOL, DEVONPORT.

Mr. HORE-BELISHA: 77.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether it is the intention of the Admiralty to retain the torpedo school at Devonport; and, if so, whether the military hospital at Stoke, Devonport, is to be taken over for the purpose, or what other arrangements are to be made?

Mr. ALEXANDER: For some time past the condition of the hulks composing the torpedo school at Devonport has not been regarded as satisfactory, and as some of them will have to be replaced before very long steps are being taken to ascertain the most suitable and economical means of carrying on the torpedo school. A number of factors have to be taken into consideration and it is not possible at this stage to say what course will eventually be adopted.

Mr. FOOT: Will the right hon. Gentleman take into consideration the possibility of reconditioning the hulks which have hitherto been used?

Mr. ALEXANDER: We have every one of those matters under consideration.

NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.

Mr. SMITH-CARINGTON: 78.
asked the Minister of Health whether he has investigated the reasons for the increase in the number of claims for sickness and disablement benefit under the National Health Insurance Acts; and whether he can now make any statement upon the subject?

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Miss Lawrence): I would refer the hon. Member to the reply on 5he same subject given to the right hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) and the hon. Member for East Willesden (Mr. D. G. Somerville) on 10th instant.

CINEMATOGRAPH FILMS ACT.

Major NATHAN: 81.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the difficulty exhibitors in the cinematograph industry are experiencing in obtaining a sufficient supply of good British silent films to comply with the quota conditions of the Cinematograph Films Act, 1927, he will consider the introduction of a short Bill to repeal this Act?

Mr. GILLETT: No. Sir.

LOSS OF STEAMSHIP "ST. SUNNIVA."

Sir ROBERT HAMILTON: 82.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he can give any further details regarding the loss of the steamship "St. Sunniva" on the island of Mousa, and particularly as regards the possibility of salving the mails and cargo?

Mr. GILLETT: The Receiver of Wreck at Lerwick has been instructed to obtain full particulars, but at the moment I have only the information which has appeared in the Press.

ROYAL AIR FORCE (SCHNEIDER TROPHY).

Mr. GLASSEY: 84.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether any decision has been arrived at as to the future use of the super-marine S 6 and Gloster-Napier seaplanes which were
built for the purpose of taking part in the Schneider Trophy Race?

The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for AIR (Mr. Montague): I think the hon. Member will find the information which he requires in the answer which I gave on 2nd April to the questions asked by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Chelsea (Sir S. Hoare) and the hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander).

SCOTLAND (CANCER).

Mr. FRANK OWEN: 85.
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of deaths registered in Scotland, and classified as cancer, for the years 1915 and 1929, respectively?

The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Mr. Johnston): In 1915 the number of such deaths was 5,291, and in 1929, 7,108.

INTESTATE ESTATES.

Sir N. GRATTAN-D0YLE: 86.
asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether he will state the number of estates of persons dying intestate and without kin, the administration of which he now directs; and the total value of the estates in question?

The CHANCELLOR of the DUCHY of LANCASTER (Sir Oswald Mosley): The number of estates of persons dying intestate and without known kin, administration of which is now being undertaken by the Duchy Solicitor, is 35, and the total value of the estates in question now in his hands is, approximately, £13,000.

FRANCIS LORANG.

Sir K. WOOD: 87.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the present position of the proceedings against Francis Lorang?

Mr. CLYNES: The decision of the French Government upon the application by His Majesty's Government for Lorang's extradition has not yet been received.

Sir K. WOOD: Has there not been considerable delay, and cannot something be done to expedite the matter?

Mr. CLYNES: The matter is at present before the French authorities.

STREET OFFENCES.

Mr. CECIL WILSON: 89.
asked the Home Secretary whether, seeing that he does not see his way to introduce at present legislation to give effect to the recommendations of the Street Offences Committee, he will, pending the abolition of the existing general and local legislation, issue such instructions as will prevent the conviction of some 4,000 women every year for alleged street offences on uncorroborated evidence?

Mr. CLYNES: No, Sir. The Committee did not recommend that corroboration should be required in every case, and I have no power to issue any instructions that would prevent Courts convicting on evidence which Courts regard as sufficient.

Mr. BROCKWAY: Can my right hon. Friend say whether a large majority of the women in prison are not women of this kind, and whether the method of sentencing them to short terms is not absolutely futile?

Mr. CLYNES: I think that is a new question, of which I should be glad to have due notice.

COVENT GARDEN (ONE-WAY TRAFFIC).

Rear-Admiral BEAMISH: 91.
asked the Minister of Transport whether any new arrangements are being considered for the introduction of the one-way working traffic system in the immediate district surrounding Covent Garden, with a view to relieving the congestion of traffic in the neighbourhood of Covent Garden market?

The MINISTER of TRANSPORT (Mr. Herbert Morrison): No new arrangements are under consideration for the introduction of one-way working in the immediate district surrounding Covent Garden, as under existing conditions it would not appear practicable to effect any improvement thereby.

Rear-Admiral BEAMISH: Does the hon. Gentleman realise that the obstruction to traffic is increasing day by day, and cannot he do something to relieve this state of congestion?

Mr. MORRISON: I am aware of the difficulties, and I shall be willing to consider representations from the hon. and gallant Member or others.

ELECTRICITY DISTRIBUTING COMPANIES.

Dr. HUNTER: 92.
asked the Minister of Transport whether he can state the number of electricity distributing companies that have capitalised their undistributed profits during the last two years; will he give particulars; and have any reductions in the maximum charges of electricity been made by any of these companies during this period?

Mr. HERBERT MORRISON: The information required by the hon. Member is not available until the Statistical Returns for the year 1929 have been prepared. As soon as particulars are available, I will inform the hon. Member.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

Ordered,
That the Proceedings of the Committee of Ways and Means be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[The Prime Minister.]

Orders of the Day — WAYS AND MEANS.

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. ROBERT YOUNG in the Chair.]

Orders of the Day — FINANCIAL STATEMENT.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Philip Snowden): The House of Commons and the country are already painfully aware of the main features of the financial problem with which I have been faced in framing the financial proposals of this Budget. The financial year which ended on the 31st of last month, closed with an actual deficit of £14,523,000, instead of an estimated surplus of £4,096,000. Revenue fell short of the estimated yield by £11,871,000, and expenditure exceeded the original estimate by £6,748,000. The result, therefore, is a failure by £18,619,000 to realise the expectations of last year's Budget.

Orders of the Day — REVENUE, 1929–30.

The Committee may be interested to know how the particular items of revenue have responded to expectations. Under Customs and Excise there were large deficiencies—on spirits more than £1,400,000 and on the Beer Duty over £1,800,000. Other heads of Customs and Excise revenue which failed to reach expectations were oil, nearly £700,000 short and sugar, nearly £1,600,000 short. On the other hand, tobacco continued its good Budget record of recent years and yielded a surplus of £2,800,000. This, I understand, is the result in the main—well, not in the main, but in a large measure—of the social and economic equality of the sexes. The Entertainment Duty showed a surplus over estimate of nearly £500,000, which may be connected with the boom in talking films.
This increase in the yield of the Entertainment Duty is interesting and it opens up a field of investigation for the social economist. It may be due to the diversion of expenditure from the public-house, or it may indicate that, notwithstanding the wide prevalence of unemployment, the aggregate spending power of the masses has not fallen off. The Customs and Excise revenue, as a whole, was short by £3,012,000.
The Inland Revenue showed a much larger deficiency, namely £9,624,000. The Income Tax yield of £237,500,000 was £2,000,000 below the estimate, but it shows an advance on the yield of previous years, if the various changes made in the scope of the charge of the tax are taken into account. So far as the Income Tax may be taken as a barometer of national prosperity therefore we are entitled at least to say that industry as a whole continued to hold its ground. The Surtax yield is slightly better than the previous year, but has failed to show the expansion which was expected, and is £1,500,000 below the estimate. The Budget expectations with regard to the Stamp Duties were sadly disappointed. The Stamp Duties had been estimated to yield £31,000,000, or £1,000,000 in excess of the boom year of 1928. With the decline in Stock Exchange transactions, the receipts from these Duties fall short of the estimate by the large sum of £5,330,000. Death Duties failed by £1,230,000 to realise the high figure of £81,000,000 at which they had been estimated, but there was a surplus of £550,000 in the collection of arrears of Excess Profits Duty and the Corporation Profits Tax.
By comparison with the large deficiencies in Customs and Inland Revenue, non-tax revenue may he regarded as having done quite well. It yielded £79,500,000 against a forecast of £300,000 less. There were one or two disappointments under certain heads of Miscellaneous Revenue, but these were made good by surpluses under Receipts from Sundry Loans. The net receipt from the Post Office was £9,200,000, or £300,000 in excess of the estimate.

Orders of the Day — EXPENDITURE, 1929–30.

I now turn to the expenditure of last year. The Debt charge was fixed at £355,000,000, and that sum was duly issued from the National Exchequer. I propose to refer to this item in more detail a little later. The Consolidated Fund Services other than Debt charge showed a saving of £l,700,000, due mainly to the reduction in the payment to the Local Taxation Account. In the case of the Supply Services, the original estimates amounted to £363,064,000. During the course of the year, Supplementary Estimates were presented to an
amount of £12,333,000, raising the total to £375,397,000. The sum actually issued was £3,837,000 below the total Estimates, but £8,496,000 in excess of the original estimates in the Budget. The main Supplementary Estimates were required, as the Committee know, in connection with the Ministry of Labour, namely, £7,650,000; the Beet Sugar Subsidy, £1,250,000; the Fighting Services, £1,320,000; Dominion Services £752,000. Minor excesses spread over a number of other Votes, accounted altogether for £1,400,000. The savings were similarly spread over many Votes and do not require separate mention. Taking together the Consolidated Fund and Supply Services, the expenditure exceeded the total estimate by £6,748,000, or about £1,000,000 less than the amount of the Ministry of Labour Supplementaries. On previous occasions, I have indicated in this House my view that had we, on our arrival in Office, found the Unemployment Fund in a solvent condition, no Supplementary Estimate for the Ministry of Labour last year would have been required. The other Supplementary Estimates were more than balanced by savings.

Orders of the Day — NATIONAL DEBT.

4.0 p.m

I must refer in rather more detail to the position of the National Debt. The total Deadweight Debt on 31st March a year ago was £7,500,000,000. A year later, at the end of last month, it was £7,469,000,000, a reduction in the nominal Debt of £31,000,000. The transactions during the year were very large, over £437,000,000 of Debt being converted or redeemed against £406,000,000 of new created. In July last certain holders of 4½ per cent. Treasury Bonds 1932–34 exercised their right of conversion to 4 per cent. Consols but by far the most important operations of the year were the issue of the 5 per cent. Conversion Loan in November and the 4½ per cent. Conversion Loan in February to meet various maturities of Treasury Bonds, and to effect a reduction in the Floating Debt. The 4½ per cent. Conversion Loan operation falls only in part within the year I am now reviewing, as we had received by 31st March only the first instalment of 10 per cent. on the cash applications. As a result of these
operations, the Floating Debt has been reduced by £100,000,000, from £737,000,000 at the beginning of the year to £637,000,000 at the end of the year, and the latter figure is easily the lowest recorded since the War. As I have indicated, the full effect of the 4½ per cent. Conversion Loan in February has not yet shown itself in these figures.
For the rest, under this head, I propose to deal as simply and as clearly as I can with the question of the Sinking Fund. It will be remembered that by the Finance Act, 1923, provision was made for a Sinking Fund rising by short stages to a total of £50,000,000 a year. By the Finance Act, 1928, that system was superseded, and provision was made instead for a fixed permanent Debt charge of £355,000,000 to cover interest and redemption of Debt. If the annual provision were maintained steadily at that level, the whole Debt, it was calculated, would be redeemed within 50 years. Various other changes were made at the same time. Whereas previously certain fairly substantial annual receipts, such as the repayment by the Dominions of their War Debt to this country, had been used to reduce Debt outside the Budget, these receipts were, under the Act of two years ago, in future directed to be treated as revenue. Power was also given to the Treasury to borrow to meet the interest on the Savings Certificates, assuming that the Fixed Debt charge proved insufficient for that purpose in any year after meeting the other claims upon it.
I was of the opinion at the time that the arrangements actually made in 1928 represented, during the initial stage of the new system, a distinct slackening in the efforts which up till then had been made to redeem the debt. The experience of the last two years has confirmed this opinion. In its first year the Fixed Debt Charge, after meeting its specific obligations, provided a free balance for further debt redemption of £7,407,000, but that result was reached after including, as a revenue receipt, capital assets taken from the Currency Note Account of £13,423,000. The difference between the capital sum put in at one end and the free sinking fund taken out at the other was just over £6,000,000, and that sum of £6,000,000 odd is the real deficiency on the working of the Fixed Debt Charge in the first
year of its operation. In its second year, that is the year just closed, the result was much the same. In the Budget statement the £355,000,000 was divided into these items—£304,600,000 available for interest and £50,400,000 for Sinking Fund. The specific Sinking Funds did not, in fact, require so much. Owing to some falling off in the amount of Victory Bonds presented in payment of Death Duties, the specific Sinking Funds required only £47,748,000, but the interest charged which had been estimated as I said just now, at £304,600,000, was £312,071,000—an excess of nearly £7,500,000—and the total expense of the debt was thus £359,819,000. The actual Debt charge exceeded the provision by £4,819,000, and, in accordance with the law, Savings Certificate interest to that amount has been borrowed.
The Committee will therefore see that a Budget deficit of £14,523,000 is not quite the full story of last year. £14,500,000 was the sum by which the Budget failed to provide a total of £355,000,000 for Debt services free of fresh borrowing. Even if the Budget had provided that sum, it would have been insufficient to meet the actual Debt charge by nearly £5,000,000. In these circumstances, I have had to consider two questions, first, whether I should make any permanent change in the Fixed Debt provision; and, second, how the Budget deficit of 1929 is to be dealt with. I could not avoid speaking somewhat critically of the Fixed Debt charge's infant years, although I readily recognise that my predecessor's expectations were a good deal stultified by the high cost of Treasury bills, and I could not persuade myself to leave the provision at £355,000,000 if I thought there was a serious risk that it would, for the third time, fail to cover our debt obligations; but in that connection we have seen a remarkable change of conditions in recent months which has been encouraged by our policy of reducing the Floating Debt, and, consequently, the number of Treasury bills in the market. The cost of the Floating Debt was estimated in last year's Budget at £26,000,000, and it actually reached £28,750,000, after threatening at one time to go very much higher. It may be rash to assume confidently that we
have entered upon a period of cheap money, but the present position and tendencies encourage that hope and it is a hope which is very widely held. We are at present selling Treasury bills at 2½ per cent., but I am not estimating such a low average during the whole year. I estimate the cost of the Floating Debt at £17,250,000—a reduction of £11,500,000 on last year. I can therefore allocate a provision of the Fixed Debt charge of £355,000,000 as follows:



£


Interest and management
264,350,000


Floating Debt
17,250,000


Specific Sinking Funds
50,440,000


Savings Certificate Interest
23,000,000


which gives a total of £355,000,000

The sum I have named as available for Savings Certificate interest should, I am advised, meet the actual charge. If it does not, it is, at any rate, rather in excess of the provision that actuarial science would require us to make for that liability. In these circumstances, I feel justified in leaving the Fixed Debt charge where it stands.

I come now to the second point—the Budget deficit of £14,500,000. Up to this moment that sum has, of course, been covered by fresh borrowing. Whether we rely on a fixed Sinking Fund or a Fixed Debt Charge, there is one certain method by which all efforts to reduce Debt can be rendered futile, and that is by leaving Budget deficits uncovered. I will not labour this truth, which is appreciated widely and has been recognised ever since the days of William Pitt. There were, it is true, Budget surpluses in 1927 and 1928, but those were diverted from Debt redemption to another purpose. There is still this deficit of £14,500,000, which I have to meet somehow. I cannot disregard it, and I have measures in mind for dealing with it, but I can more conveniently explain them later. I may, however, say at once that it is my intention to propose to Parliament an alteration in the law bearing on Budget deficits in general. As things stand, the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the day is under no legal obligation to propose to Parliament that a realised deficit shall be made good. I propose to
alter that. I propose to include in the Finance Bill a Clause providing that when a Budget deficit is realised a corresponding addition shall be made in the succeeding year to the provision for debt redemption, unless Parliament otherwise decides. Thus a Chancellor of the Exchequer, instead of being left to please himself in the matter, will need to lay his proposals before Parliament if he does not propose to cover a deficit in the ensuing year. I must apologise for the time I have devoted to this matter, and I now turn to the more exciting topic of the accounts of the current year.

Orders of the Day — EXPENDITURE, 1930–31.

Hon. Members have already before them in the Estimates the sums required for the Supply services, which make a total of £417,909,000, leaving out the Post Office expenditure, which is now dealt with as a self-balancing service. On the Fighting Services there is a reduction of £2,521,000 compared with the original estimate of last year, the new total being £110,089,000. The Navy Estimates show a decrease of £4,126,000, due mainly to the reductions which the present Government have felt justified in making in the shipbuilding programmes of 1928 and 1929. Those reductions have already been announced to the House. The Army Estimates show a decrease of £45,000 on the original estimates for last year, and one of £605,000 on the original Estimates plus the Supplementary. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War has been able to secure these reductions notwithstanding the loss of receipts in connection with the Army of Occupation of the Rhine, and the inclusion, as I think has already been explained, in the original Estimates this year, for the first time, of the extra cost of additional troops in China. The Air Estimates show an increase of £1,650,000 over the original Estimates of last year, but the Committee will remember that a Supplementary Estimate of £760,000 was necessary in that year.

The reduction in the expenditure on the Fighting Services compared with three years ago is more than £7,000,000, but it is not so much as I would like to see. I think we are all agreed that it is a deplorable thing that 12 years after the end of the War-to-end-war we and the other Powers of the world should
be spending so large a part of our resources upon the maintenance of huge armaments and upon preparations for another possible war, especially when over 50 nations have solemnly renounced war as an instrument of national policy and have pledged themselves never to resort to war for the settling of international disputes. So much for the Fighting Services Estimates.

The total of the Civil Estimates is £295,686,000. This figure, I must ask the Committee to note, is not properly comparable with the total of the Civil Estimates for the previous year by reason of the coming into full operation this year of the financial provisions of the Local Government Acts. The Civil Estimates total includes approximately £15,000,000 in respect of grants to local authorities which were formerly made through the local taxation accounts, and the increase due to this item is set off by a corresponding reduction in the Consolidated Fund charges. The total of the Estimates also includes additional grants to local authorities under the de-rating scheme of approximately £15,000,000 over and above the amount provided from the Votes in 1929. Thus the effect of the Local Government Acts is to increase the Civil Estimates by £30,000,000, subject to a set-off of £15,000,000 on the Consolidated Fund charges. The figures relating to the de-rating scheme are extremely confusing. I must ask the Committee to note that this sum of £30,000,000 which I have mentioned is the increase in the cost to Civil Estimates in 1930 over 1929. In 1929, there was an expenditure of £15,560,000 on rating relief from the 1st October and the accelerated rebates on railway freights. This year the expenditure on Civil Estimates is £30,000,000 more, but against that increase is to be set a saving of £15,000,000 on Consolidated Fund Services. If I have not, and I am afraid I have not, made it perfectly clear, this will put the position in one short sentence: The real addition to the Exchequer this year is £15,000,000 on this account.

Excluding the effect of the de-rating scheme, the Civil Estimates total is £27,000,000 higher than the Budget Estimate of 1929, and £16,000,000 higher than the final Estimates of that year, including the Supplementary Estimates. Of the £27,000,000 increase, £14,000,000 arises from the additional grants we have had
to make to deal with the insolvent position of the Unemployment Fund, and £5,000,000 is the additional contribution in respect of Widows', Orphans and Old Age Pensions. The other items which make up this increase are mainly these—they are rather interesting as showing the growth of the Social Services: The normal growth of old age pensions, £1,000,000; growth of education grants, £2,500,000; growth in housing and health insurance grants, £1,368,000; increase in Beet Sugar Subsidy, due to increased acreage planted, £2,400,000; grants under Development Acts passed by my right hon. Friend at the beginning of this Session, £1,185,000.

As regards the Consolidated Fund Services, the preponderating item is the Fixed Debt charge of £355,000,000. There are payments to the Northern Ireland Exchequer of £5,700,000 and miscellaneous Consolidated Fund charges at £3,300,000, including a remanet payment of £300,000 to the local taxation account. But for this last item the miscellaneous Consolidated Fund charges would have shown a reduction of £500,000 on last year. I do not know if expert Members of the Committee will be able to detect from this particular economy that I have not thought it necessary to provide this financial year for the expenses of a General Election. Excluding the self-balancing items, I thus put the total expenditure for 1930–31 at £781,909,000.

Orders of the Day — REVENUE, 1930–31.

I turn now to the revenue side of the accounts. I estimate the Customs and Excise receipts for 1930, on the basis of the existing taxation, at £250,000,000, which is £400,000 less than the estimate of last year, but over £2,500,000 more than was received. I have allowed for a fall in the receipts from spirits of £1,500,000 below the actual receipts last year, but for an increased yield of about £800,000 from beer over last year's actual receipts.

Viscountess ASTOR: Shame!

Mr. SNOWDEN: Hon. Members who were in the House last year will remember that my predecessor estimated for a fairly considerable increase from the Beer Duty, which was not fully realised. I estimate the revenue from tobacco at £63,200,000, which is only £400,000 more than the revenue last year;
but in this case there were forestalments which somewhat inflated last year's revenue at the expense of this year's. For sugar, I should normally estimate for a small decrease in revenue, due to an increase in the consumption of home and Empire sugar, which pays lower rates than foreign sugar. There was, however, a substantial postponement of revenue in 1929, probably over £1,000,000, which benefits this year. Allowing for this, I estimate an increase of over £2,000,000. As hon. Members know, postponements or forestalments count two upon a division in comparing the years affected. I have allowed for moderate increases in other items and for some decreases, particulars of which will be found in the White Paper which will be available when I sit down.
For Inland Revenue I estimate a yield of £239,000,000 in Income Tax, £57,000,000 from Sur-tax, £80,000,000 from Death Duties, £27,250,000 from stamps, and £2,500,000 from the remaining duties of Land Tax, Mineral Rights Duty, Excess Profits Duty and Corporation Profits Tax—giving a total for Inland Revenue of £405,750,000. The Income Tax estimate of £239,000,000 looks to a small increase of about £1,500,000 over the yield of last year. The information on which it is based includes many forecasts of their profits by trading concerns, and I should like to take this opportunity of acknowledging the assistance that they always give so readily to the Revenue authorities. These and other data point to the conclusion that, taken over the whole field, the trading profits of the year 1929, which will be the basis of the tax for 1930 are about the same as the profits for the year 1928, and accordingly I look for no more than the present yield in that part of the Income Tax that comes from the taxation of trading profits. The small increase in my estimate is due to the growth of other items in the field of charge. As regards the other Inland Revenue Duties, the only estimate that calls for special mention is the figure of £80,000,000 for Death Duties. In looking for £80,000,000 I hope to obtain much the same as was received last year it and the year before. This is so much higher than the yield of preceding years that I dare not count on any natural expansion this year. The Exchequer share of Motor Vehicle Duties I put at just under
£5,000,000—£4,970,000. That makes a total tax revenue—the estimates of which I may say I have made on a conservative basis, not on a Tory basis—on the existing basis of £660,720,000.
Now as regards non-tax revenue, the net receipts from the Post Office—I hope the Committee will not shout "Penny post"—I estimate at £10,125,000; from Crown lands, £1,300,000, both showing an increase over last year. Receipts from Sundry Loans I expect to yield £33,000,000, or nearly £2,500,000. more than last year's estimate, which was exceeded by the actual result. But in any case the payment in respect of French War Debt is due to increase in the present year from £10,000,000 to £12,500,000. Miscellaneous Receipts, under which I propose to combine the two items hitherto known as Miscellaneous Ordinary and Miscellaneous Special Receipts, I estimate at £34,500,000. This is £4,000,000 less than the Budget estimate of last year. Receipts from Reparations will, owing to the transition from the Dawes to the Young plan, involving a reduction in the total German annuities, be £15,500,000 as against £19,300,000 estimated last year, and some further reduction in the estimate of miscellaneous revenue has been made because I can no longer expect those unforeseen items of the relics of the War to be as fruitful in their yield as in past years.
The total revenue for 1930, on the basis of existing taxation, I thus calculate at £739,645,000. The total expenditure I have already given as £781,909,000. The difference which I have to make good is £42,264,000. I will give the Committee one moment from which to recover from the shock of that statement. The amount is large, but for the current year there are, at any rate, resources available to reduce it.

Orders of the Day — RATING RELIEF SUSPENSORY FUND.

I have already mentioned the cost this year of the de-rating scheme. The Committee will be aware that the nex taxation imposed in connection with this scheme began about 18 months before the expenditure and that my predecessor therefore was enabled to set up what was called the Rating Relief Suspensory Fund. This Fund was intended to meet the excess of the cost of the de-rating scheme in later years over the yield of the
Petrol Duty. This excess in the present year I put at £16,000,000 and, with the aid of that sum, the prospective deficit is reduced to £26,264,000. But I should like the Committee to be perfectly clear as to the true nature of this Suspensory Fund. There is no cash in the Fund that has not already been borrowed in reduction of the Floating Debt to the market. The money can now only be found by allowing the debt to rise by a corresponding amount. The Fund was merely a device for making later Budgets look better. The deficit of £42,264,000 in 1930 is just as real as if the Fund had never existed. We shall be meeting current expenditure to the extent of £16,000,000 by increased borrowing from the public on the excuse that we had surpluses of that amount in the past, and in any case the accumulated Suspensory Fund is little more than adequate to cover the deficit on the first full year's working of the scheme. In 1931 only £4,000,000 will be available, and of course nothing in later years. I am not criticising the position, but only recording the fact that this consideration is obviously of the most serious importance. Although we can treat the deficiency for this year as £26,264,000 by using £16,000,000 from the Suspensory Fund, that relief will drop to £4,000,000 next year, and to nil thereafter. The only comfort, and it is a small one, is that the increase in the commitment next year fits in with the fact that new taxation, which I am afraid is unavoidable, does not give its full yield in the year in which it is first imposed. I am departing from the policy of recent years which has been acted on the precept of postponing the evil day. My proposals this year will be framed in such a way that whatever the revenue they yield this year, they will yield greater sums in 1931 and later years in order to meet this legacy of indebtedness. I shall thus, without adding anything this year to taxation for the de-rating scheme, make prospective provision for meeting its cost when the Suspensory Fund is exhausted, without any addition to taxation for this. purpose in future years.

Orders of the Day — ADDITIONAL DEBT REDEMPTION.

I will now revert to the measures I propose to deal with the deficit of £14,500,000 of last year. After full consideration, I propose to make a special provision for additional Debt redemption
of £5,000,000 this year, £5,000,000 next year, and £4,500,000 in 1932. The financial circumstances in which we are placed do not permit me to put a heavier burden on this year.

Orders of the Day — BETTING DUTY (ABOLITION).

It will be convenient now if I deal with one or two matters of minor financial importance which have a bearing on the amount I have to raise this year. I propose to abolish the last vestiges of the inglorious Betting Duty. The Committee will remember that this tax was introduced in 1926, accompanied by fees payable by bookmakers for personal certificates and for entry certificates in respect of their premises. The tax on bets was not a brilliant success and was finally abandoned in the last Budget. There remained in force the duty of £10 payable on bookmakers' certificates, which had been imposed for the protection of the tax on bets. I propose now to repeal the duties on the certificates, so that the Statute Book will once more be entirely free from the blemish of a Measure that ought never to have appeared on it. The present certificates will therefore be allowed to run out at the end of October next and will not be renewed. This will cost £200,000 in a full year and £180,000 this year.

Orders of the Day — SAFEGUARDING AND IMPORT DUTIES.

I must say a word about the Safeguarding Duties. Let me say in passing that these duties are not primarily revenue duties. Under the Acts imposing these duties four of them are due to expire this year, namely, the duty on lace on 30th June, the duties on cutlery, gloves and gas mantles on 21st December. As we have already announced, we propose to honour the intention of the late Prime Minister and allow the duties to continue until these respective dates, but not to renew them. The consequential loss of revenue will be £521,000 this year, and £823,000 in a full year. As these duties are due to expire under the existing law passed by the late Government, the loss of revenue has already been allowed for in computing the estimates of Customs and Excise revenue for the current year.

I may be expected to say something about the McKenna Duties and the Silk Duties. These were imposed by my predecessor as revenue duties, and they
bring in a revenue of about £10,000,000 a year. I regret that the financial position I have inherited—[interruption]—there is time for me to alter my mind yet—will not permit me to repeal these duties in the present Budget, but the pledges of the Government given last year still stand. Likewise, the financial position will not permit me to carry out this year our pledge to remove all the existing food duties, but I reaffirm the statement that I made on behalf of the Government eight months ago, that it is our intention to do so before this Parliament ends—four years hence.

Orders of the Day — STAMP AND MOTOR LICENCE DUTIES.

The Finance Bill will contain certain proposals for minor reliefs from Stamp Duties as they affect certain schemes of rationalisation and amalgamation. The cost of these proposals is estimated at about £250,000. I also propose to make the small alterations with regard to motor licences which were proposed by the right hon. Gentleman last year. These affect motor cycles, commercial vehicles of between two and 2½ tons, and petrol-electric vehicles. The changes will take effect from the 1st July next in the first two cases, and from the 1st January next in the case of petrol-electric vehicles. The cost will be small, about £20,000 a, year to the Exchequer and about £90,000 to the Road Fund.

Orders of the Day — ESTIMATED DEFICIT.

I will now summarise the position that I have to deal with. After allowing for the transfer from the Suspensory Fund, I was left with a prospective excess of expenditure over revenue of £26,264,000. Allowing for the provision to be made towards the deficit of last year, that is to say, £5,000,000, and the small loss of revenue due to the concessions I have just mentioned, this figure becomes £31,714,000.

Orders of the Day — BEER DUTY.

In my search for additional revenue, I look first to beer, on which alone among alcoholic liquors the duty has been reduced since the War. The existing duty on beer is £5 per standard barrel, that is to say, 36 gallons at the standard gravity of 1,055, less the rebate which was granted in 1923 of £1 per bulk barrel, that is to say, 36 gallons, whatever the gravity. To put back the taxa-
tion to the figure at which it stood before the reduction in 1923 would give me £15,000,000 a year. I shall disappoint the unanimous expectations of Press forecasts if I do not impose also an additional 2d. a gallon on petrol. I may say that I do not propose to do either of these things. With regard to beer, though personally I would much like to see the vast sums that are now spent on alcoholic liquors diverted to more useful purposes, I recognise that those who spend these sums, often from very inadequate means, contribute to the national revenue, in the main, out of all proportion to their means, and I do not think it would be fair to tax their misapplied expenditure still more.

Viscountess ASTOR: Oh!

Mr. SNOWDEN: Perhaps the Noble Lady might reserve her enthusiasm until later stages of my speech. I must be content, therefore, with something more moderate. I propose to raise, as from to-morrow, the Beer Duty by 3s. per standard barrel, leaving the rebate unaltered. That is an increase of ld. per gallon, which is, of course, too small to justify any alteration in retail prices; but, even so, it would prove ineffective as a revenue instrument if it led to a drop in gravities, that is to say, in the strength of the beer as now supplied. On this point, I may inform the Committee that I have received assurances from the brewers, whose attitude in the matter I desire to acknowledge, which make it unnecessary for me to anticipate any such result. The yield of the additional duty is estimated at £3,100,000 in a full year, and £2,750,000 in the current year.

Orders of the Day — CHANGES OF INLAND REVENUE LAW.

This, of course, does not go very far towards meeting a requirement of £31,714,000, and, in fact, I am left with practically £29,000,000 still to find. Before I submit to the Committee my main proposals for raising this amount, perhaps it will not be out of place if I proceed first to outline certain proposals that I desire to make, which are directed primarily to strengthening and improving the taxation code rather than to the provision of the additional revenue that is required. The most important of these proposals relate to the legal avoidance of direct taxation. The Committee
will agree with me that, where taxation is heavy, Parliament must strive to hold the balance fairly. The right hon. Gentleman dealt in 1927 with avoidance of Super-tax. He then stated his intention to deal later with the avoidance of Estate Duty, but he was not able to pursue his wish. I propose legislation to prevent avoidance of Estate Duty on landed estates and investments through the medium of private companies. Further, I shall ask the Committee to deal with the avoidance of Surtax by single premium insurance policies, and to give the taxing authorities rather wider powers of obtaining information in regard to the ownership of income. As regards single premium policies, I am proposing a Resolution which is necessarily wide in its terms, but this need excite no alarm in the minds of hon. Members. When they have the Finance Bill before them, they will see that all necessary precautions have been taken against any interference with ordinary life insurance, and that it is not proposed to go farther than is necessary to protect the Exchequer against transactions, not only calculated to avoid, but aimed at the avoidance, of liability to Surtax. These are matters of some complexity, and if for that reason I say no more about them now, there will be plenty of other opportunities of examining them in detail.
In addition to these proposals with regard to tax avoidance, the Finance Bill will contain a number of provisions relating to Inland Revenue Duties which it may be convenient for me to touch. upon at this stage. I propose an alteration of the law in regard to the liability of non-resident persons trading in this country through agents. There is no question that more urgently calls for uniform treatment by all countries that levy an Income Tax than that of taxing the foreigner who trades through an agent. British traders in foreign countries regularly encounter difficulty by reason of the view taken by those countries as to the proper solution of the question It is important, therefore, that we should have our own house in order if we are to ask for fair treatment for our traders abroad. I propose to amend the law so as to make it possible to make reciprocal arrangements with foreign countries. under which a foreign principal would only be chargeable in respect of his
profits on the sale of goods through an agent here in cases where the agent either sells from stock or is empowered to conclude contracts on his principal's behalf, and does in fact habitually exercise that power as part of the normal course of business.
I propose in the Finance Bill to seek powers to take preparatory steps in the current year for a new assessment of all property in Great Britain for Income Tax Schedule A. This will come into force next year, and will include the Metropolis. In the Metropolis, valuations for Schedule A are linked up and dependent on the valuations made for purposes of rating. I propose to alter this, and to provide for a separate valuation for Schedule A, as distinct from the rating valuation, thus bringing the Metropolis into line with the rest of the country. The last reassessment related to the year 1923–24, so that a new assessment is now fully due, and I propose that as from 1931–32 onwards, the reassessment shall take place automatically at quinquennial periods.
The Finance Bill will contain several minor provisions amending the Inland Revenue laws, generally to deal with points of hardship or very slight readjustment. One of them aims at removing the hardship which may occur under the present Income Tax law when a new concern commences business with a very profitable year, and, although the change requires a Resolution, its general effect is in the direction of a concession to the taxpayer.

Orders of the Day — CHANGES IN TAXATION.

5.0 p.m.

Now with regard to raising the revenue. The Inland Revenue proposals which I have just described will not affect this year's revenue to any appreciable extent, and we are, therefore, still confronted in our balance sheet with an excess of expenditure over revenue, at existing rates, of £28,964,000. My friends, and all who know my fiscal views will not be surprised to hear that for this amount I shall look to direct taxation. I propose an increase of 6d. in the standard rate of In come Tax. I shall, however, revise the existing graduation so as to protect small incomes, whether earned or investment, from additional liability. Instead of following the ordi-
nary course of giving a relief of 2s. 3d.. on the first £225 of taxable income, I shall give a relief of 2s. 6d. on the first £250. This change in the graduation has rather remarkable results. It has the important effect that about three-quarters of the whole number of income Tax payers will not be affected by the increase in the rate. Let me illustrate its effect on small incomes. There will be no increase in the Income Tax bill of unmarried or widowed persons with income, all investment, not exceeding £485 a year, or with income, all earned, not exceeding £582. A married man with three children will not be called upon to pay more tax unless his income, if investment income, exceeds £735 or unless the income, if earned, exceeds £882. Under these points, and of course under even higher points where there are more than three children, the Income Tax bill will be the same as it was last year, or for some people even a trifle less. I have prepared a comprehensive table which will appear in the White Paper showing the effect of these changes upon various incomes and the poundage of the Income Tax in those cases.
I should like at this point to mention a widespread delusion as to the burden of Income Tax, although I am sure it will still conveniently survive. Every Income Tax payer talks as if he paid 4s. in the £ on all his income. Not one Income Tax payer in 50 pays at that rate. Out of the 2,250,000 who pay something in Income Tax there are not 50,000 who pay at 4s. in the £. No person with an income below £3,000 a year pays the full rate, and the great majority do not pay more than from a few pence to 2s. in the £.
As regards life insurance allowance I propose to leave the old rates of 2s., 3s. and 4s. unchanged. For the overwhelming majority of taxpayers the gain from the change of graduation will be found to outweigh any loss due to the retention of the old rates of life insurance relief.
The increase in the standard rate necessitates special provisions in regard to deduction of tax from dividends paid out of the taxed profits of companies. Up to 1927 tax was deductible from these dividends at the accruing rate over the period in which the profits were earned. As part of the right hon. Gentleman's
scheme for simplification of the Income Tax, it was enacted in the Finance Act of 1927 that tax should be deductible from dividends at the rate in force at the time of payment. This creates a difficulty especially in the case of companies who pay their dividends about this time of the year. They may have paid them before the increase was known or they may have reached such a point in the preparation of the warrants that it would be impracticable to make the change. I propose that this opportunity should be taken to put on the Statute Book provisions which will meet this small difficulty once and for all, not only in the case of an increase in the rate but also in the happy eventuality of a decrease at some future date.
The extra sixpence standing alone would produce about £29,000,000 in a full year. Allowing for the cost of the change in graduation, which amounts to £5,000,000, that I propose, it will produce about £24,000,000 in a full year and £21,000,000 in the current year. I am still about £8,000,000 short of my requirements for the year.
I now come to the other part of the Income Tax which used to be called Super-tax but which my predecessor has re-christened Surtax. One of the most curious features of the simplification of the Income Tax which was carried out at the instance of the right hon. Gentleman is that the rates at which Surtax is payable in any year are laid down in the Finance Act of the preceding year. This is an anomaly that I propose to bring to an end. I propose to put the Surtax on the basis on which all taxation should be, namely, that the rate of the tax payable in any year falls to be determined by the financial needs of that year. The increase in the standard rate of Income Tax is of course borne by the Surtaxpayers as well as other In come Taxpayers, but the financial needs of the current year are such that I feel bound to call on the Surtaxpayer to supplement his additional payment of Income Tax by an additional payment of Surtax in this year. I propose an increase of rates. Particulars will be set out in detail in the White Paper. It increases the initial rate from 9d. to 1s. in the pound, and the rate for that part of the income in excess of £50,000 a year
from 6s. to 7s. 6d. This will yield £12,500,000 in a full year and £7,500,000 in the current year.
I have now to turn to the other main item of direct taxation—the Death Duties. The Estate Duty stand out among all our taxes in its extraordinary expansion since the War. At. the termination of the War the yield of the Estate Duty stood at less than £25,000,000. This was levied on a capital passing at death of less than £300,000,000. The capital coming under charge to Estate Duty has now passed £500,000,000, and the yield of Estate Duty has reached £70,000,000. I propose that for all estates exceeding £2,000,000 the rate of duty shall be increased from 40 to 50 per cent. I propose to amend the existing scale from £120,000 upwards by increases of either 1 per cent. or 2 per cent. from £120,000 to £250,000 with a growing increase from £250,000 onwards to reach a rate of 50 per cent. on estates exceeding £2,000,000. The new scale will give a harmonious progression, and its details will also be found in the White Paper. It is estimated that it will yield about £7,000,000 in a full year and £3,000,000 in the current year.
The total effect of the changes in Income Tax, Surtax and Estate Duty which I have just described is to yield a revenue of £31,500,000 in the current year and £43,500,000 in a full year.

Orders of the Day — FINAL BALANCE SHEET.

I am now in a position to present a final balance sheet. I gave the figures of expenditure as £781,909,000. I must add the provision for the deficit for 1929 of £5,000,000 and also make a small readjustment for the Northern Ireland share of in creased taxation—£300,000. The total thus becomes £787,209,000. Revenue on the existing basis was £739,645,000. As I said earlier, the variation attributable to the lapsing under the existing law of certain Safeguarding Duties has already been allowed for. The minor changes I have mentioned involve a loss altogether of £450,000. These are the increases this year: Beer Duty, £2,750,000; increases of direct taxation, £31,500,000; Suspensory Fund, £16,000,000. The resultant figure is a revenue of £789,445,000. It yields a small surplus of £2,236,000, which I must retain for contingencies.

Orders of the Day — LAND VALUES.

I should disappoint not only Members on this side of the House, but also many Members of the Liberal party and an increasing number of individuals and local bodies throughout the country if I were to say nothing on the subject of land valuation and land taxation. In my Budget statement of 1924, I indicated that this was a matter with which I intended to deal. Had the Labour party remained in office in the following year proposals relating to the subject of land values would have been introduced. Since then the right of the community to some portion of the enhanced value of land which is created by the community itself has been increasingly recognised, and the moment has arrived when definite action must be taken. I have been much impressed by the demands which have come to me from innumerable local bodies including many that are overwhelmingly Tory in their constitution for power to rate site values. As hon. Members will appreciate the first and essential step to the levying of a contribution on land values is the preparation of and completion of a valuation of all sites in the country. In whatever form a contribution may be levied, this is an indispensable preliminary. It is in itself a task that must necessarily take some time, and it is imperative that a beginning should be made at the earliest possible moment. I have given long and anxious consideration, with the invaluable help of my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary and my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Education assisted by an official Committee, to every aspect of this question, and especially as to the best method by which our plans could be put before Parliament. I had at one time hoped to put my proposals into the Finance Bill of the year, but many considerations which I need not detail now have brought me to the conclusion that the most expeditious and effective way of achieving our aim will be to provide for the valuation in a separate Bill.
The Government accordingly propose to introduce forthwith such a separate Bill. We shall thus obtain a basis on which an impost will later be levied. I do not wish at the present time to prejudge the precise form which that impost should take—whether it should be an
annual tax for the benefit of the State, or an annual rate for the benefit of the local authorities, or both; but the Valuation Bill we shall introduce will provide the basis for both the taxation and rating of land values. I have tried to make it quite plain and beyond dispute that it is the Government's intention to use the valuation, for which provision will be made in the Bill, as a means of securing to the community a share in the constantly growing value of the land. This is a Measure equitable in itself, insistently demanded and long overdue. I have never regarded the taxation or rating of land values only as a fiscal instrument. It will be, to use of phrase of Mr. Asquith's, a potent instrument of social reform. This proposal is probably the only one of which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) will be enthusiastic in his support. Throughout his long and variegated political career he has remained a faithful, eloquent and powerful advocate of this reform, and I look forward with confidence to his invaluable help in carrying this reform to a successful conclusion.

Orders of the Day — GUIDING PRINCIPLES.

And now, Sir, I have finished. I have encroached on the time of the Committee rather less than is usual upon such an occasion. I have tried to avoid controversial matters and I have eschewed rhetoric and tried to give the Committee a plain business statement, and, I hope, indeed, that I have made it as clear as possible. The Committee now knows the worst. I have had a difficult and an unenviable task. In facing the inevitable increase of taxation I have Keen guided by two principles. As long as I hold this position I am determined, however burdensome it may be, that the country shall pay its way by honest methods. I will not leave my successor to meet my bills. In imposing additional taxation I have done so by placing the burden on the shoulders best able to bear the weight. I have imposed no direct burden on industry; neither have I taken from the poorest of the land any part of their inadequate means. The additional taxation will fall upon a class to whom it will mean no deprivation of the necessaries of life nor even of reasonable luxuries and amenities. I am asking only that the
favoured section of the community shall contribute to the needs of the State in proportion to the benefits the State has conferred upon them.
On the other hand, I realise the imperative need of the strictest national economy in the present state of trade and industry, not only to provide employment and comfort for our people, but because primarily it is only from trade and commerce that the national revenue can be derived. I abate not one jot or tittle in my lifelong advocacy of great schemes of social reform and national reconstruction, but our immediate concern is to make these things ultimately possible out of revived and prosperous industry. To that we must first direct our efforts and devote what resources we can afford to that remunerative purpose.

Orders of the Day — FUTURE PROSPECTS.

No man can speak of the future with certainty. Least of all can I give any binding assurance. But at least I can say this. So far as I can see, the steps which I have proposed for balancing this year's Budget will be sufficient to ensure, in the absence of unforeseeable calamities or of heavy increases of expenditure, that no further increases of taxation will need to be imposed next year.
Though, as I have said, I am imposing no new direct burdens on industry, I am fully aware of the psychological effect on trade and commerce of increased taxation even when no material burden is imposed. Recognising this, I am convinced that whatever my views as to the equity of the present distribution of the national wealth, in existing circumstances an essential factor in ameliorating unemployment is a restoration of a spirit of confidence and enterprise among those now responsible for conducting industry and commerce. And to encourage that spirit of confidence and enterprise it is right that, so far as is humanly possible they should know the probable full extent of their tax burden in immediately ensuing years. For the last eight years we have been passing through difficult times. We are still in the aftermath of the War. I have never despaired in the darkest hour of the future of our country. It is perhaps a happy omen that to-day for the first time since the autumn the unemployment figures show a slight reduction. Although I am optimistic of the future,
I do not expect a sudden and immediate change to our former prosperity. But hope, nay I am confident, that when I stand at this Box next year I shall be able to submit to the House of Commons a much more cheerful and encouraging statement.

Orders of the Day — BEER (EXCISE).

Motion made, and Question proposed,
That in addition to the duty of Excise now payable in respect of beer brewed in the United Kingdom, there shall on and after the fifteenth day of April, nineteen hundred and thirty, be charged the following duty (that is to say):—

£
s
d


For every thirty-six gallons of worts of a specific gravity of one thousand and fifty-five degrees, a duty of
0
3
0

and so in proportion for any difference in quantity or gravity.

And it is declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."—[Mr. Snowden.]

Mr. CHURCHILL: It is a wise convention which has gradually grown up in our proceedings which renders it unnecessary and inopportune for me at this moment to express any opinion upon the grave and formidable proposals which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has thought it his duty to place before us. For such expression of opinion, there will be ample opportunity. We must have time to consider the full implications and character of what he has just unfolded. We must have time to consider what reactions these proposals will produce, not only upon the affairs of individuals or of classes, but upon the general position of trade and industry throughout this island. For that, I say there will be time enough. And I shall not do what I have sometimes seen done, begin by saying that this is not the time to discuss these matters and allow myself to be tempted piecemeal into touching upon them one after another.
There has also grown up a custom which I think should be observed of offering some tribute to the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon the form and mariner of his statement, upon the care and zeal which he has brought to the study of the great problems with which he is concerned. I will also add my congratulations to him upon the manner in which he has so tersely compressed the survey of
this vast field into a moderate compass, and, lastly, I congratulate him upon the physical vigour which has enabled him to go through an ordeal which both in the preparation and at the moment is certainly one to tax a man's strength to the full.

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I propose to follow the very prudent example of the right hon. Gentleman the late Chancellor of the Exchequer and not in the least endeavour to engage upon any survey or examination of the very important proposals which have been placed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer before the Committee. I should like, first, to see the White Paper and prepare what I have to say in regard to it. Meanwhile, I should like whole-heartedly to Join the late Chancellor of the Exchequer in felicitating the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Committee upon the most admirable statement which the right hon. Gentleman has placed before us. In lucidity and compression it was the same miracle of compression as a six-inch shell, and it had the same shattering detonation in its effect upon some of my hon. Friends on this side of the House. It was very clear. It made complicated finance intelligible to our ears. I congratulate the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon a very fine statement.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I hope that I shall be in order in raising a matter of detail on the Chancellor of the Exchequer's statement. I do not expect the Chancellor of the Exchequer to stay to hear my remarks, but the point which I desire to raise affects the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. The Chancellor of the Exchequer claimed that none of these new taxes would hamper or affect industry and production. He spoke of the tax on petrol and said that he was not going to increase it by the 2d. per gallon for which the newspapers had prepared the country. I personally thank him for that. I never liked that tax, because I think it is a direct tax on transport. When that tax was first put on it was applied to a number of other oil products, amongst them paraffin—this tax was taken off in four days—white spirit and turpentine. I expected the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give some concession in regard to the two latter taxes.
There was an outcry among the cottage dwelling population when th3 first Petrol Duty was applied to paraffin, and, although paraffin can be used in certain forms of internal combustion engines, the tax was taken off paraffin. It has, however, remained on white which cannot be used in any internal combustion engine, and also on turpentine, which cannot be used for fuel purposes whatsoever. As these taxes remain, I should like to know whether the matter has been considered. The Chancellor of the Exchequer spoke very briefly and concisely, and it may not have been possible for him to mention it. I should like to know whether we can hope for any concession with regard to these taxes in the near future. They represent a very heavy impost on the raw material of an important series of industries, including the paint and colour industry, which is largely represented in my own constituency. This industry, which does a large export trade and gives employment to a great many people at good wages, feels this tax very heavily. We can produce no turpentine in this country, and yet we have to pay 4d. a gallon on imported turpentine which cannot be used in internal combustion engines, while our competitors on the Continent and in America get their turpentine without tax. This is a most mischievous impost in regard to industry and the amount of revenue which it brings in is negligible. It only produces £83,000 in a full year.
I am glad that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer is not waiting to hear this appeal. Before he goes, I should like to congratulate him on the very concise, interesting and statesmanlike speech that he has made. I have to think of the interests of the manufacturers in my constituency who are affected by this particular tax, and would ask the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to give us some hope. The matter will come up on the Finance Bill, and I and a great many other hon. Members of all parties are absolutely pledged in regard to the matter. We have promised our constituents that we will exert every form of legitimate pressure on the Treasury to get the tax removed. Vegetable turpentine cannot be produced here, and this taxation is unjust. In regard to white spirit, the
amount involved is rather heavier. The total amount produced by the tax is over £200,000, so I am advised. This white spirit is very largely used in a number of industries and, therefore, the tax is a direct tax on industry and production. It is not necessary, however, to press this matter in detail at the present time. It will be pressed on the Finance Bill, and I ask for the most sympathetic consideration. I hope that the Financial Secretary will be able to say that there will be a rebate. I notice that in the Isle of Man Customs—the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Kelly) will bear me out in this statement, because he can always give expert advice concerning the Manx customs—a rebate has been given this year on imports of white spirit, for the benefit of a small growing industry in the Island. I beg for sympathetic treatment in regard to similar imports into this country. I have not delayed the Committee unduly, and I hope that the Financial Secretary will be able to give a favourable response.

Question put, and agreed to.

Orders of the Day — BEER (CUSTOMS).

Resolved,
That in addition to the duties of Customs now payable on beer imported into the United Kingdom there shall on and after the fifteenth day of April, nineteen hundred and thirty, be charged the following duties (that is to say):—
In the case of beer called or similar to mum, spruce, or black beer, or Berlin white beer or other preparations, whether fermented or not fermented, of a similar character—

s
d.


For every thirty-six gallons where the worts thereof are or were before fermentation of a specific gravity—




Not exceeding one thousand two hundred and fifteen degrees, a duty of
12 
0


Exceeding one thousand two hundred and fifteen degrees, a duty of
14
0


In the case of every description of beer other than that above specified—




For every thirty-six gallons where the worts thereof were before fermentation of a specific gravity of one thousand and fifty-five degrees, a duty of
3
0

and so in proportion for any difference in gravity.

And it is declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall
have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."

Orders of the Day — LICENCE DUTY ON CERTAIN MOTORVEHICLES.

Resolved,
That, as from the first day of January, nineteen hundred and thirty-one, a motor vehicle shall not, for the purpose of determining the rate of the licence duty chargeable under the Second Schedule to the Finance Act, 1920, be deemed to be electrically propelled unless the electrical motive power is derived either from a source external to the vehicle, or from an electrical storage battery which is not connected to any source of power during the time when the vehicle is in motion.

Orders of the Day — INCOME TAX.

Resolved,

"That—


(a) income tax for the year 1930–31 shall be charged at the standard rate of four shillings and six pence in the pound, and, in the case of an individual whose total income from all sources exceeds two thousand pounds, at such higher rates in respect of the excess over two thousand pounds as Parliament may hereafter determine;
(b) all such enactments as had effect with respect to the Income Tax charged for the year 1929–30, shall have effect with respect to the Income Tax charged for the year 1930–31;
(c) the annual value of any property which has been adopted for the purpose of Income Tax under Schedules A and B for the year 1929–30 shall be taken as the annual value of that property for the same purpose for the year 1930–31:
Provided that the foregoing provision relating to annual value shall not apply to lands, tenements and hereditaments in the administrative county of London with respect to which the valuation list under the Valuation (Metropolis) Act, 1869, is by that Act made conclusive for the purposes of Income Tax.
And it is declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."

Orders of the Day — AMENDMENT AS TO SURTAX RATES FOR 1929–30.

Resolved,
That Income Tax for the year 1929–30 in respect of the excess of the total income of an individual over two thousand pounds shall, instead of being charged at the same higher rates as were charged for the year 1928–29, be charged at rates in the pound which exceed the standard rate by the amounts specified in the second column of the following Table:

TABLE.


For every pound of the first five hundred pounds of the excess
One shilling.


For every pound of the next five hundred pounds of the excess
One shilling and three-pence


For every pound of the next one thousand pounds of the excess
Two shillings.


For every pound of the next one thousand pounds of the excess
Three shillings and six pence.


For every pound of the next one thousand pounds of the excess
Three shillings.


For every pound of the next two thousand pounds of the excess
Four shillings.


For every pound of the next two thousand pounds of the excess
Five shillings.


For every pound of the next five thousand pounds of the excess
Five shillings and sixpence.


For every pound of the next five thousand pounds of the excess
Six shillings.


For every pound of the next ten thousand pounds of the excess
Six shillings.


For every pound of the next twenty thousand pounds of the excess
Seven shillings.


For every pound of the remainder of the excess
Seven shillings and sixpence.

And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."

Orders of the Day — AMENDMENT AS TO RELIEF IN RESPECT OF LIFE INSURANCE PREMIUMS.

Resolved,
 That, notwithstanding that the standard rate of tax exceeds four shillings, the relief from Income Tax in respect of life insurance premiums and other payments given by Section thirty-two of the Income Tax Act, 1918, shall be computed as if the references in the said Section to the standard rate of tax (other than the last such reference in Sub-section (9) of the said section) were references to a rate of four shillings.
And it is declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913.

Orders of the Day — PROVISIONS AS TO OVER-DEDUCTIONS AND UNDER-DEDUCTIONS OF INCOME TAX.

Resolved,

"That—

(a) subsection (2) of section two hundred and eleven of the Income Tax Act, 1918 (which makes provision as to the deduction in any year of Inoome Tax which has not been deducted before the passing of the Finance Act for the year) shall be amended so as to apply to—
(i) preference dividends payable at a fixed gross rate per cent. (including in any case where dividends are payable partly at such a rate and partly at a variable rate, such part of the dividends as is payable at a fixed gross rate per cent.) in respect of which a deduction may be made under Rule 20 of the General Rules;
(ii) payments for or in respect of copyright to which Section twenty-five of the Finance Act, 1927, appplies; and
(iii) any royalty or other sum paid in respect of the user of a patent:

(b) where on payment of a dividend, other than such a preference dividend as aforesaid, Income Tax has, under Rule 20 of the General Rules, been deducted therefrom by reference to a standard rate greater or less than the standard rate for the year in which the dividend became due, the net amount received shall, for all the purposes of the Income Tax Acts, be deemed to represent income of such an amount as would, after deduction of tax by reference to the standard rate last-mentioned, be equal to the net amount received, and for the said purposes there shall be deemed to have been paid in respect of that income by deduction tax of such an amount as is equal to the amount of tax on that income computed by reference to the standard rate last-mentioned.

And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913

Orders of the Day — STANDARD RATE.

That it is expedient to amend the law with respect to cases in which in any year in which there is a reduction of the standard rate Income Tax is deducted by reference to the standard rate of the previous year either under Rule 20 of the General Rules from payments of such preference dividends as are mentioned in the last preceding Resolution, or under Rule 19 of the General Rules from payments of interest on securities of a body corporate."

Orders of the Day — INTEREST ON LOANS USED FOR PAYMENT OF PREMIUMS, ETC., NOT TO BE ALLOWED AS DEDUCTION FOR PURPOSES OF SUR-TAX.

Resolved,

"That—

(a) in computing for the purposes of Sur-tax the total income for any year of
2689
an individual who has entered into a contract of assurance or into a contract similar in character to a contract of assurance, being in either case a contract under which a capital sum is expressed to be payable in the future in return for one or more antecedent payments, no deduction shall (subject to such exceptions and qualifications as Parliament may by any Act of the present Session relating to Finance determine) be allowed in respect of any interest on, or other sum payable in respect of, any borrowed money which has been applied directly or indirectly to or towards the making of any of the antecedent payments or of any payment made in lieu of any of those payments, or to or towards the replacement of any money so applied; and
(b) where the benefit of any such contract as aforesaid entered into by any person has become vested in another person being an individual, paragraph (a) of this Resolution shall apply in relation to that individual—

(i) as if the contract had been a contract entered into by him; and
(ii) in a case where the benefit became vested in him by virtue of an assignment and any payment was made by him in consideration of the assignment, as if that payment were an antecedent payment under the contract; and
(iii) in a case where, either as being the person in whom the benefit is vested or by reason of any agreement under or in pursuance of which the benefit became vested in him, he pays any interest on or makes any other payment in respect of any borrowed money, as if that money had been applied towards the making of an antecedent payment under the contract."

Orders of the Day — PERIOD IN RESPECT OF WHICH PROFITS ORGAINS ARE TO BE COMPUTED.

Resolved,
That it is expedient to amend the provisions of the Income Tax Acts which relate to the determination of the period the profits or gains of which are, for the purposes of an assessment to Income Tax in any year, to be taken to be the profits or gains of the year preceding the year of assessment.

Orders of the Day — COMPUTATION OF PROFITS OR GAINS IN CASE OF NEW TRADE, PROFESSION OR VOCATION.

Resolved,
That it is expedient to amend the provisions of the Income Tax Acts relating to the computation for the purposes of Income Tax of the profits or gains of a trade, profession or vocation so far as relates to the charge of income Tax in respect of any such profits or gains for the year of assess-
ment next after, and the year of assessment next but one after, the year of assessment in which the trade, profession or vocation was set up or commenced.

Orders of the Day — ESTATE DUTY (ALTERATION OF SCALE).

Resolved,
That there shall be substituted for the rates of Estate Duty set out in the Fourth Schedule to the Finance Act, 1925, rates in accordance with the following table:

Principal Value of Estate.—
Rate per Cent. of Duty. —


£
£



Exceeding
100 and not exceeding
500
1


Exceeding
500 and not exceeding
1,000
3


Exceeding
1,000 and not exceeding
5,000
3


Exceeding
5,000 and not exceeding
10,000
4


Exceeding
10,000 and not exceeding
12,500
5


Exceeding
12,300 and not exceeding
15,000
6


Exceeding
15,000 and not exceeding
18,000
7


Exceeding
18,000 and not exceeding
21,000
8


Exceeding
21,000 and not exceeding
25,000
9


Exceeding
25,000 and not exceeding
30,000
10


Exceeding
30,000 and not exceeding
35,000
11


Exceeding
35,000 and not exceeding
40,000
12


Exceeding
40,000 and not exceeding
45,000
13


Exceeding
45,000 and not exceeding
50,000
14


Exceeding
50,000 and not exceeding
55,000
15


Exceeding
55,000 and not exceeding
65,000
16


Exceeding
65,000 and not exceeding
75,000
17


Exceeding
75,000 and not exceeding
85,000
18


Exceeding
85,000 and not exceeding
100,000
19


Exceeding
100,000 and not exceeding
120,000
20


Exceeding
120,000 and not exceeding
150,000
22


Exceeding
150,000 and not exceeding
200,000
24


Exceeding
200,000 and not exceeding
250,000
26


Exceeding
250,000 and not exceeding
300,000
28


Exceeding
300,000 and not exceeding
400,000
30


Exceeding
400,000 and not exceeding
500,000
32


Exceeding
500,000 and not exceeding
600,000
34


Exceeding
600,000 and not exceeding
800,000
36


Exceeding
800,000 and not exceeding
1,000,000
38


Exceeding
1,000,000 and not exceeding
1,250,000
40


Exceeding
1,250,000 and not exceeding
1,500,000
42


Exceeding
1,500,000 and not exceeding
2,000,000
45


Exceeding
2,000,000 and not exceeding
—
50"

Orders of the Day — ESTATE DUTY IN CASES WHERE THE DECEASED PERSON HAD TRANSFERRED PROPERTY TO A COMPANY.

Resolved,

"That.—

(a) if a deceased person has in his lifetime directly or indirectly transferred property to a company and has in his life-time received, directly or indirectly, benefits of any kind (other than interest or dividends) from that company, a sum representing the assets of that company at the date of his death, or a proper proportion of those assets, shall, for the purpose of the enactments relating to Estate Duty, be deemed (subject to such exceptions and qualifications as Parliament may by any Act of the present Session relating to Finance determine) to pass on his death:
(b) where in the lifetime of a deceased person any property in which he or any other person had an estate or interest limited to cease on the death of the deceased person, was transferred, directly or indirectly, to or for the benefit of a com-
2691
pany, that property or, in case that property or any part thereof was sold or exchanged by the company during the lifetime of the deceased, the assets in the hands of the company representing the property so sold or exchanged, shall, for the purpose of the enactments relating to Estate Duty, be deemed (subject to such exceptions and qualifications as Parliament may determine as aforesaid) to pass on the death of the deceased, notwithstanding any extinction of the estate or interest:
(c) where any property passing on the death of a deceased person includes shares, or any like interests, in a company, the value of those shares or interests shall (subject to such exceptions and qualifications as Parliament may determine as aforesaid) be determined by reference to the principal value of the total assets of the company:
(d) any Estate Duty payable in respect of any property by virtue of paragraph (a) or paragraph (b) of this Resolution shall be a debt due to the Grown from the company, and the company and every director thereof shall be accountable for the duty."

Orders of the Day — ESTATE DUTY IN CASE WHERE ANNUITY CHARGED ON PROPERTY HAS BEEN SURRENDERED.

Resolved,
That property which was subject to an annuity or other periodical payment ceasing on the death of a deceased person shall, for the purpose of the enactments relating to Estate Duty, be deemed to pass on the death of the deceased notwithstanding that the annuity or other payment has been surrendered, assured or otherwise disposed of during the lifetime of the deceased, whether for value or not, to, or for the benefit of, a person entitled to the property, unless the surrender, assurance or disposition was bona fide made or effected three years before the death of the deceased and no benefit, by contract or otherwise, was
secured to the person entitled to the annuity or other payment in return for the surrender, assurance or disposition thereof.

Orders of the Day — DEATH DUTIES ON OBJECTS OF ART, ETC.

Resolved,
That where any property which, while enjoyed in kind, is exempt from Estate Duty by virtue of Section twenty of the Finance Act, 1896, and the Acts amending that Act, is sold, Death Duties shall become chargeable on the proceeds of sale in respect of the last death on which the property passed and, as respects Estate Duty, at the rate appropriate to the principal value of the estate passing on fiat death."—[Mr. Snowden.]

Orders of the Day — AMENDMENT OF LAW

Motion made, and Question proposed:
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to the National Debt, Customs and Inland Revenue (including Excise) and so make further provision in connection with finance."—[Mr. Snowden.]

Motion made, and. Question. 'That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.— [Mr. T. Kennedy.]

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.

Committee also report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Orders of the Day — ADJOURNENT.

Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. T. Kennedy.]

Adjourned accordingly at Six o'Clock.